CONSERVATIVES JUST GOT DE_NIED

[Saber]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/28/ho ... ?hpt=hp_t1
SUCK IT BITCHES
SUCK IIIIIIIIIIIIIT
Surprisingly, Roberts was the swing vote, not Kennedy.

[stanley]

good

[Smeemo]

Let's give more power to the state! Woooooo! They do such a great job with everything they do! Everything they touch assuredly does not turn to shit!

I know our healthcare system is seriously fucked, but the individual mandate scares the hell out of me. I'll have more to say after reading the full opinions, but I don't care for the precedent this sets.

[Maringue]

The precedent that it sets is simple (and was already firmly in place): Congress can tax you for whatever the fuck it wants.

The part I really like about this legislation, 80% of premiums must go towards actual health care payments. If not, your insurance company has to give everyone a refund.

[Phantom]

There goes another blow to our country, keep going and mabye we can end up like Germany, or Rome.

[Maringue]

There goes another blow to our country, keep going and mabye we can end up like Germany, or Rome.

Germany has a 4.5% unemployment rate, universal health care, a robust middle class, free education and is one of the biggest high tech manufacturing countries in the world.

We should be so lucky.

[Phantom]

There goes another blow to our country, keep going and mabye we can end up like Germany, or Rome.

Germany has a 4.5% unemployment rate, universal health care, a robust middle class, free education and is one of the biggest high tech manufacturing countries in the world.

We should be so lucky.

I was referring to the state of Germany before WWII, and how exactly it go to be that bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

[stanley]

There goes another blow to our country, keep going and mabye we can end up like Germany, or Rome.

Germany has a 4.5% unemployment rate, universal health care, a robust middle class, free education and is one of the biggest high tech manufacturing countries in the world.

We should be so lucky.

I was referring to the state of Germany before WWII, and how exactly it go to be that bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

the weimar republic did poorly because our stock market crashed and we demanded they repay all the money we gave to them.(assuming that what youre referring to) how is this relevant to obamacare

[Phantom]

the weimar republic did poorly because our stock market crashed and we demanded they repay all the money we gave to them.(assuming that what youre referring to) how is this relevant to obamacare

A. Thats not the only reason their economy collapsed.
B. Our country's dollar is going to tank, and things like this health care reform, will only take us down further down the ladder, its bad for business and its bad for the people.

[stanley]

the weimar republic did poorly because our stock market crashed and we demanded they repay all the money we gave to them.(assuming that what youre referring to) how is this relevant to obamacare

A. Thats not the only reason their economy collapsed.
B. Our country's dollar is going to tank, and things like this health care reform, will only take us down further down the ladder, its bad for business and its bad for the people.

thats such a vague, opinionated statement. why is it bad for business, or people for that matter, that health care is becoming affordable. between 50 and 100 thousand people die each year in america because they dont have health care. obamacare is meant to change that. please explain why obamacare is bad.

[Rologton]

Germany fell into the Nazi regime because of the Reparations the League of Nations demanded of them after WWI in the Treaty of Versaille, not because of America demanding they repay us. The whole reason Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN even though it was his idea to begin with was because England, France and Itally were using it as a way to get a shitton of cash from Germany as a form of revenge, which was the opposite of his dream for it. These reparations, btw, were not payed off until 2010. America was far too much of an isolationist state at the time to have had any direct effect on the state of Germany.

Also, I'm with Smeemo on this: the idea that the Government can tax behavior is fucking terrifying. Hello big brother!

[stanley]

Germany fell into the Nazi regime because of the Reparations the League of Nations demanded of them after WWI in the Treaty of Versaille, not because of America demanding they repay us. The whole reason Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN even though it was his idea to begin with was because England, France and Itally were using it as a way to get a shitton of cash from Germany as a form of revenge, which was the opposite of his dream for it. These reparations, btw, were not payed off until 2010. America was far too much of an isolationist state at the time to have had any direct effect on the state of Germany.

Also, I'm with Smeemo on this: the idea that the Government can tax behavior is fucking terrifying. Hello big brother!

i never said germany fell into the nazi regime because we were demanding they repay us. but, their economy did collapse because of it. thats all i was referring to. just thought i'd clear that up...

[Smeemo]

The Germany-Greece comparison is a poor one. A significant number of Germans understand that wealth doesn't come from simple fiat, and are least trying to hold Merkel accountable. IMO she's already conceded too much to the banking cartel, but anyhow...

Fair point, Maringue. It's in the Constitution, after all. It's just upsetting to me that the state has this authority--to make up a new tax on a whim because our "betters" decide it's best for us. We've seen what they've done to Social Security; why should we trust them to manage the funds of this new tax properly? They' surely won't, if history is any indicator. Eventually, instead of "just" not having the social safety net, people will be without basic healthcare more so than they are currently. But my statement about precedent was badly worded at least, and probably shouldn't have been made at all. I admit my views are heavily influenced by Rothbard and Mises and their ilk; I believe that we'd be better off as a species without the tick that is the ever-expanding central government. After generations have become reliant on the state for their basic needs, the inevitable result is a tyrannical government. It's too much power in a small number of hands.

I just want us to be free, and I don't see how this law, if it were to be enacted, makes us more free. To me, it just compounds our problem of having a government that provides special benefits to a select number of corporations at the expense of the free market and the public's interests.

Essentially, it boils down to what one thinks best benefits the people: individuals and the free market, or the bureaucratic state.

[MamaWeegee]

Germany fell into the Nazi regime because of the Reparations the League of Nations demanded of them after WWI in the Treaty of Versaille, not because of America demanding they repay us. The whole reason Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN even though it was his idea to begin with was because England, France and Itally were using it as a way to get a shitton of cash from Germany as a form of revenge, which was the opposite of his dream for it. These reparations, btw, were not payed off until 2010. America was far too much of an isolationist state at the time to have had any direct effect on the state of Germany.

Also, I'm with Smeemo on this: the idea that the Government can tax behavior is fucking terrifying. Hello big brother!

Government already taxed things like this. Mandatory car insurance anyone? (Why is a car's safety more important than a human's? Weird )

[Rologton]

Germany fell into the Nazi regime because of the Reparations the League of Nations demanded of them after WWI in the Treaty of Versaille, not because of America demanding they repay us. The whole reason Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN even though it was his idea to begin with was because England, France and Itally were using it as a way to get a shitton of cash from Germany as a form of revenge, which was the opposite of his dream for it. These reparations, btw, were not payed off until 2010. America was far too much of an isolationist state at the time to have had any direct effect on the state of Germany.

Also, I'm with Smeemo on this: the idea that the Government can tax behavior is fucking terrifying. Hello big brother!

i never said germany fell into the nazi regime because we were demanding they repay us. but, their economy did collapse because of it. thats all i was referring to. just thought i'd clear that up...

My point is that we didn't demand the payment, Europe and the League of Nations did. That would include England, France, Belgiam and Itally. Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN and America removed itself from the League for the very fact that we disagreed with demanding the payment.

[medkitz]

Germany fell into the Nazi regime because of the Reparations the League of Nations demanded of them after WWI in the Treaty of Versaille, not because of America demanding they repay us. The whole reason Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN even though it was his idea to begin with was because England, France and Itally were using it as a way to get a shitton of cash from Germany as a form of revenge, which was the opposite of his dream for it. These reparations, btw, were not payed off until 2010. America was far too much of an isolationist state at the time to have had any direct effect on the state of Germany.

Also, I'm with Smeemo on this: the idea that the Government can tax behavior is fucking terrifying. Hello big brother!

i never said germany fell into the nazi regime because we were demanding they repay us. but, their economy did collapse because of it. thats all i was referring to. just thought i'd clear that up...

My point is that we didn't demand the payment, Europe and the League of Nations did. That would include England, France, Belgiam and Itally. Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN and America removed itself from the League for the very fact that we disagreed with demanding the payment.

To sum up, Wilson was smart and didn't force an insane amount of reparations on Germany, however the other dumbass Allies ( no offense ) decided--> LET'S TAX THE ABSOLUTE SHIT OUT OF A BROKE GERMANY. Thus the world's economy went kapoot since the money was literally non-existent and the money that was circulating was just going in an endless cycle.

[stanley]

Germany fell into the Nazi regime because of the Reparations the League of Nations demanded of them after WWI in the Treaty of Versaille, not because of America demanding they repay us. The whole reason Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN even though it was his idea to begin with was because England, France and Itally were using it as a way to get a shitton of cash from Germany as a form of revenge, which was the opposite of his dream for it. These reparations, btw, were not payed off until 2010. America was far too much of an isolationist state at the time to have had any direct effect on the state of Germany.

Also, I'm with Smeemo on this: the idea that the Government can tax behavior is fucking terrifying. Hello big brother!

i never said germany fell into the nazi regime because we were demanding they repay us. but, their economy did collapse because of it. thats all i was referring to. just thought i'd clear that up...

My point is that we didn't demand the payment, Europe and the League of Nations did. That would include England, France, Belgiam and Itally. Woodrow Wilson retracted his support of the LoN and America removed itself from the League for the very fact that we disagreed with demanding the payment.

im not talking about reparations. we gave germany a lot of money a few years before WWII, then when we hit the depression, we asked for it back, and killed their economy. this was right before WWII. you're not wrong, we're just talking about different things.

[cloud]

WOW NO WAY. THANKS OBAMA!
NOW NOT ONLY ARE WE GETTING TAXED BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC STIMULUS PLAN THAT DIDN'T WORK, WE'RE BEING FORCED TO BUY HEALTHCARE BY THE GOVERNMENT NOW. HOORAY!!!

^THAT is what the liberals are saying by celebrating.

[cloud]

There goes another blow to our country, keep going and mabye we can end up like Germany, or Rome.

Germany has a 4.5% unemployment rate, universal health care, a robust middle class, free education and is one of the biggest high tech manufacturing countries in the world.

We should be so lucky.

Also, this is because after world war 2, germany is no longer permitted to have an army larger that what it needs as national defense (about 100,00 soldiers)
Their government does not spend as much on military funds as we do, and thats why their economy is performing so well. Learn the history. It all ties together.
And as for us having more government envolvement and ending up like Germany? Well, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

[Saber]

WOW NO WAY. THANKS OBAMA!
NOW NOT ONLY ARE WE GETTING TAXED BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC STIMULUS PLAN THAT DIDN'T WORK, WE'RE BEING FORCED TO BUY HEALTHCARE BY THE GOVERNMENT NOW. HOORAY!!!

^THAT is what the liberals are saying by celebrating.

Right, because the initial economic stimulus was TOTALLY something enacted by the Obama administration.
Tell me what's wrong with buying health care. If you get sick and you don't have health care, you're straight fucked in this country. Plus, the government is subsidizing those people who don't have the ability to pay for the health care so they can get health care for considerably cheaper.
Plus, it's probably raising taxes on the rich people who CAN afford health care. They can afford a raise in taxes a lot more than poor people can.
It's pro-rich policies that madd fukk the nation over. Just accept it.

[Shotgunbob]

Let's give more power to the state! Woooooo! They do such a great job with everything they do! Everything they touch assuredly does not turn to shit!

I know our healthcare system is seriously fucked, but the individual mandate scares the hell out of me. I'll have more to say after reading the full opinions, but I don't care for the precedent this sets.

Pretty much this. I really believed the Supreme Court would have struck it down based on that but I guess not.

[stanley]

wow. i hate how bad of a rap the stimulus gets. the stimulus worked you know. the only reason it didnt work more was because if Obama had tried to do a larger scale stimulus (which is what we needed) it would have been blocked. the stimulus saved roughly 3 percent off the unemployment rate, and without it we almost certainly would be in a full depression. maybe ask an economist who knows what they're talking about rather than bill oreilly. the stimulus' only downfall was that it wasnt big enough. Also, the healthcare plan has faults, but id like to remind everyone what the alternative is,which is nothing. this program is undoubtedly better than nothing in my opinion, maybe everyone should stop bitching that they need to pay a little in taxes, and realize that this healthcare is going to save american's who cant afford any healthcare at all.

[Phantom]

the weimar republic did poorly because our stock market crashed and we demanded they repay all the money we gave to them.(assuming that what youre referring to) how is this relevant to obamacare

A. Thats not the only reason their economy collapsed.
B. Our country's dollar is going to tank, and things like this health care reform, will only take us down further down the ladder, its bad for business and its bad for the people.

thats such a vague, opinionated statement. why is it bad for business, or people for that matter, that health care is becoming affordable. between 50 and 100 thousand people die each year in america because they dont have health care. obamacare is meant to change that. please explain why obamacare is bad.

Lets start with Business.
All businesses are now required to buy health care for all employes, these cost are estimated to reach 15,000$ or more for every person, if these businesses do not provide insurance they will be fined 5,000$.....total for all businesses big or small. I dont need to explain how the numbers will effect small businesses, and the larger corporations. Actually I will Elaborate, small businesses will not hire anyone or fire people and big businesses will just pay the five thousand and cut health benefits to employees.

Now lets move on the people. Knowing how well big government handles things, going to the doctor will eventually end up being like going to the DMV, or any other government owned enterprise, but if that itself does not cause you to dislike it, its also giving insurance companies and the government death panels for you and everybody else, to decide what you can have and what you cant.

These are my two main problems with it.

[MamaWeegee]

Lets start with Business.
All businesses are now required to buy health care for all employes, these cost are estimated to reach 15,000$ or more for every person, if these businesses do not provide insurance they will be fined 5,000$.....total for all businesses big or small. I dont need to explain how the numbers will effect small businesses, and the larger corporations. Actually I will Elaborate, small businesses will not hire anyone or fire people and big businesses will just pay the five thousand and cut health benefits to employees.

Now lets move on the people. Knowing how well big government handles things, going to the doctor will eventually end up being like going to the DMV, or any other government owned enterprise, but if that itself does not cause you to dislike it, its also giving insurance companies and the government death panels for you and everybody else, to decide what you can have and what you cant.

These are my two main problems with it.

Not all businesses are required. Only those that employ 50+ employees. Also didn't we debunk death panels a long time ago -_- (can't tell if troll or just wants Sarah Palin's body)

[Maringue]

I work at one end of the health care industry, albeit the very first research steps (I do drug design research), so let me clear a few things up.

1) If we don't want to keep pay double the amount that most other countries pay with worse results, then we do need to have a system that is allowed to deny people medical procedures they don't fucking need. I see it all the time when I work in the clinic, people demanding tests and shit because they saw it on the internet. Never mind the guy standing next to you who went to med school and residency for 12 years doesn't think you need any of those tests, the internet says so and doctors are afraid of getting sued. Americans act like children with healthcare, they want everything (mostly shit the never needed) and then bitch when it costs too much.

2) Before this, everyone who had health insurance was footing the bill for everyone who didn't. Period. End of story. And people who didn't have health insurance were getting their care the most expensive way possible, the emergency room. This is why an aspirin costs $12 in a hospital, because you had to pay for every aspirin given to someone who didn't have insurance.

3) This is NOT, I repeat, not government health care. This is in fact, the biggest expansion of private healthcare in the history of this country. No one is forcing you to buy government health care, but it is among one of the options that you are allowed to choose from.

4) About those death panels. You know what that actually came from? A part in the law that mandates that insurance companies cover consultations for things like hospice and other end of life care scenarios. This affects people who are already dying, but forces their insurance to cover a consultation with a physician about what options for their end of life care are the best.

5) My favorite part of this law. Insurance companies are now required to spend 80% of premiums you pay on actual healthcare and not another lexus for the CEO. If they fall below this mark, they must refund the difference to all their policy holders with a check. This has already happened with a company in Ohio I believe, but I could have the state wrong.

In short, conservatives (it was the Heritage Foundations idea for the mandate to remove "free riders" on the system, ie the uninsured) have spend millions of dollars pumping out misinformation on this bill because they don't like Obama getting credit for implementing their ideas. So go and actually read what the bill does (and don't read about it on Faux News) before you make up your mind about it.

[Spyder]

I like all the people that are saying they're gonna "move to Canada".

They're too stupid to realize that Canada already has what they're trying to avoid.

[Smeemo]

I believe there's a strong case for arguing that the ever-rising costs of healthcare were due to government subsidization. I'll expound on this if anyone cares to hear it, but I'll leave it at that for now. Yes, the law deals with private health care corporations. But don't confuse that with promoting health care provided by the free market. The law entrenches even more deeply the already well-established health care cartel. Smaller players have already been forced out due to previous federal intervention. It's corporatism masquerading as a pro-free market idea.

I fear this is another case of Government Identifies Problem (of which there are a seemingly infinite number--large sugary drinks, anyone?), Government Intervenes, Government Intervention Causes Unforeseen Problems, Government Intervenes Further, and the cycle continues. And yes, fuck The Heritage Foundation and Fox News. But fuck crony capitalism, too. Time will tell how the law works, but I don't see any reason to trust the money-grubbing sons of whores with more power.

I think Maringue and I should get working on compiling the Federalist Papers: Critsandvich Health Care Edition.

I saw Stanley talking about the stimulus. The Creature from Jekyll Island is a fantastic read if you should ever have the time for it (it's a bit lengthy). It outlines the history of the idea of the stimulus and how the same tactics have been used for almost a hundred years to line a relatively few privileged players' pockets with gold at the expense of the general population.

[Smeemo]

Aww, are we all done debating?

I was busy drinking my way across the state and back last week, and was looking forward to coming back to this thread to see how my logic got pwned. But it didn't. Don't let me have the last word, you bleeding heart sons of bitches. That was a sarcastic joke about how name-calling is unhelpful. Except when it prods people into commenting further. Like now. Your mother is a hamster. I was hoping at least Maringue and I could go at it ad infinitum. I don't get enough constructive arguing in my life. But until then, I will consider this anarchists: 1, statists: 0.

[Maringue]

I was away in Vegas and now I have to pack to move to a new apartment. Esoteric debating will have to take a back seat for a bit, but it will return.

[Smeemo]

[Echoplex]

I'll just leave this here:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... bankruptcy

The system is still completely fucked, and the individual mandate was the dream of right wing think tank groups (Heritage Foundation to be exact) from decades ago. Don't listen to unsolicited opinion with your news - This was framed as a political victory, but it's only a continuation of the status quo and a tiny surtax on millionaires which will be wiped out by whatever new loopholes are being written up as we speak.

[pundit]Anyway, Obama governs from the center right and the whole political landscape has shifted accordingly. Your choice in November is between the continuation of the status quo, or the gutting of our infrastructure for quick profit. The money will keep rolling in so that big pharma can keep padding their pockets and doctors can continue charging $1000 for an x-ray. Hospital treatment is so expensive that people were starting to risk death instead of purchasing treatment and spending life with the collections agency. Health care shifted their goalposts to keep these people making copayments on drugs or whatever other bullshit. It's a giant money train and they're just putting more people on it - Obama does not give 1/10th of a fuck about your health. Politics is a business in 2012 and businesses will not spend money unless they can make their investment back in cold hard cash.