The Tough Break Update.

[Poppet]

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=19715


All
Base weapon switch speed changed from 0.67 seconds to 0.5 seconds
Upon spawning, friendly players will show an outline for 10 seconds
Updated various weapon descriptions to better detail their functionality

Multi-Class

Panic Attack
No longer auto-fires when fully loaded. Shots can be held and released at will.
Reserve Shooter
No longer boosts all-around switch speed, instead boosts switch-to speed by 20% and switch-from speed by 15%
No longer mini-crits any airborne target (i.e. jumping). Target must be forced in to the air via blastjump, knockback, airblast, or grapple.
The Half-Zatoichi
Now considered a sword (increased holster and deploy time and increased range)
Honorbound changed. Deals 50 self damage on holster if no kill was made. Cannot be holstered if player is below 50 life and no kill was made.
100% life restore on kill changed to 50% health gain on kill that can result in overheal
No random crits

Scout

Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
Increased health recovered on hit from +3 to +5
Mad Milk
Extinguishing an ally will now reduce the cooldown by 20%
Wrap Assassin
Now 42% more festive! Ornament shatters on all impacts, dealing a small amount of damage in a small radius. Bleed effect still only applies to a target that is struck directly.
Ball recharge rate increased by 25%
Damage penalty reduced from -70% to -65%

Soldier

Beggar's Bazooka
Decreased blast radius by 20%
Concheror
Doubled health regeneration rate. Regeneration rate is now decreased if player has been recently damaged.
B.A.S.E Jumper
Removed hidden property of up draft when on fire
Market Gardener
Added 20% Attack Speed penalty
Air-Strike
Reduced blast radius by 20% when rocket jumping (28% reduction when compared to stock)

Sniper

The Cleaner's Carbine
Reduced firing rate penalty from 35% to 20%
Added 'CRIKEY' meter which is filled by dealing damage
Mini-crits are no longer activated by kill, but can instead be activated by alt-fire when the 'CRIKEY' meter is filled
Cozy Camper
Quadrupled health regeneration rate. Regeneration rate is now decreased if player has been recently damaged.
Jarate
Extinguishing an ally now reduces the cool down by 20%

Pyro

Pyros like to collect rainbows! Extinguishing a teammate will now return 20 health to the Pyro.
Consecutive Airblasts will no longer prevent enemies from air-strafing until they touch the ground
The base Flamethrower's damage fall off over distance has been decreased, resulting in higher damage output at range
Degreaser
No longer boosts all-around switch speed. Instead, boosts switch-to speed by 60% and switch-from speed by 30%.
Removed damage penalty
Increased Airblast cost by 25%
Increased afterburn penalty to from 25% to 66%
Phlogistinator
Removed 10% damage penalty.
When activating 'MMMPH', the taunting Pyro gains temporary invulnerability and immunity to knockback effects
Axtinguisher
Properties changed
100% Chance to crit against burning targets
33% Damage penalty
20% Slower attack speed
75% Slower switch-to speed

Medic

Medics now have slightly higher health regeneration when healing a hurt patient
During setup time, ÜberCharge build rate is now increased by 3x
Amputator
Taunt can now be activated by alt-fire
Healing done with the taunt now grants small amounts of ÜberCharge
Vaccinator
Removed 10% health regeneration on proper resist
Added slight ÜberCharge build on proper resist
Increased ÜberCharge rate from +50% to +67%
Reduced overhealed ÜberCharge build rate penalty to 33% from 66%. As this penalty is applied after the base increase, healing an overhealed patient is now 33% more effective.
Crusader's Crossbow
Healing a player with an arrow now grants a small amount of ÜberCharge
Quick-Fix
Fixed cases where Quick-Fix ÜberCharged players could still be affected by certain knock-back effects
Players can no longer capture objectives while under the effects of Quick-Fix ÜberCharge

Spy

The HUD 'Cloak' meter now displays 'MOTION' and 'FEIGN' when Cloak and Dagger and Dead Ringer are equipped respectively
Dead Ringer
Initial damage reduction when feigning death increased to 75% from 50%
Spy-cicle
Fixed a bug where ammo packs from dead players were not filling the Spy-cicle meter
Fire immunity shield no longer appears when fire immunity is triggered

Heavy

Fists of Steel
Removed deploy time penalty
Added penalty of increased holster time by 100%
Gloves of Running Urgently
Increased holster time penalty
Warrior's Spirit
Now heals 50 health on kill
Damage received and dealt increased by 30%
Removed health penalty
Eviction Notice
Now provides 15% move speed bonus
Now increases damage taken by 20%

Demoman / Demoknight

Shield bash now deals damage at all ranges, scaled by distance
Melee damage boost after shield bash is based on amount of charge consumed. Now provides mini-crit at 25% depleted, and full crit at 60% depleted.
Charging now removes debuffs from the Demoknight (Bleed, Fire, Mad Milk, Jarate)
All Swords now have a slower deploy and holster speed compared to base weapons in addition to their increased melee range
Splendid Screen
Removed the ability to deal charge impact damage at any range (now native to all shields)
Now increases recharge rate by 50%
Increased blast resistance from 15% to 20%
Tide Turner
Now grants mini-crit instead of full-crit on charge bash
Reduced resistances to 15%
Chargin Targe
Reduced blast resistance from 40% to 30%
Removed fire immunity
Claidheamh Mòr
Removed charge duration bonus
Now restores 25 health on kill
Removed health penalty
Now increases damage taken while active by 15%
Persian Persuader
Removed ammo pickups granting health instead of ammo
Added penalties of reduced primary and secondary ammo
Ammo pickups now replenish charge
Now gains charge meter on hit
Quickiebomb Launcher
Fizzle time increased from 2 seconds to 4 seconds
Ullapool Caber
Base melee damage increased from 35 to 55
Added 20% fire rate penalty
Added 100% switch-to time penalty
Loose Cannon
Reduced projectile speed (now a visible attribute)
Reduced cannon impact damage from 60 to 50. Damage also scales with distance.
Reduced knockback from cannon hit. Knockback strength is now similar to airblast.

Engineer

After removing a Sapper from a sentry, there is now a 0.5s delay before the sentry is active again
Sentries brought into a respawn room no longer detonate outside of Mann vs. Machine
The Jag
Added damage penalty against buildings. Now takes 3 hits to destroy a Sapper.
Rescue Ranger
Healing per bolt reduced from 75 to 60

[Poppet]

BEGGARS NERF

RESERVE SHOOTER NERF

DEGREASER NERF

CHARGIN TARGE NERF

TIDE TURNER NERF RIP

GRENADE DEMOKNIGHT NERF

MEDIC BUFFS

PYRO BUFFS

NEW WEAPONS ADDED EVICTION NOTICE AND AXTINGUISHER

PHLOGISTINATOR BUFF (somehow)

SPLENDID SCREEN BUFF

PERSIAN PERSUADER BUFF



Chargin Targe was worthless already. If anything it needed buffs. Tide Turner nerf doesn't actually look relevant from what I'm seeing. The gain of charge bashing is probably worth the nerf. Splendid Screen is probably viable now.

Flamethrower and Backburner are both reasonable choices over Degreaser now. They already were but more so now.


The pyroland skins. I need them. All of them.

[Doctor Galaxy]

I actually love the changes that this update is gonna bring.
There's now more incentitive for a Pyro to airblast a teammate, and more of a reason for Meds to stay in a firefight with their pockets. Engineers can't rely only on their Rescue Ranger to effectively heal a sentry, the Degreaser's nerf makes it harder on Pyros who rely on combos, the Reserve Shooter has been balanced so it doesn't punish a Scout or any class for normally jumping, and the Loose Cannon has been nerfed to where spamming it down a corridor isn't as effective.
Plus the stuff from the collections look great; personal favorite being this Medigun:

[flufffage]

BACK TO STOCK BABY YAAAASSSSSS

[fingerman]

The Half-Zatoichi
Now considered a sword (increased holster and deploy time and increased range)
Honorbound changed. Deals 50 self damage on holster if no kill was made. Cannot be holstered if player is below 50 life and no kill was made.
100% life restore on kill changed to 50% health gain on kill that can result in overheal
No random crits

rip secrets

[Insipid]

Yay! for the Beggars and Reserve Shooter nerfs.
and I like that milk and pee have reduced cool down when used to put out friendlies.
AND NO Zatoichi Crits!
but... but... WHY BUFF THE PHLOG?!?!

Between the degreaser and axtinguisher (switch time) nerf, it seems like they really tried to kill a lot of the quick pyro combos. :-S
At least there's a +20HP for extinguishing teammates now.

[DerKrieger105]

Everyone is cheering that the Pyro now has more of an incentive to extinguish, yet every game I played every pyro was running Phlog.

Engine changes were unnecessary. Beggars nerf doesn't solve the problem that much. Medic changes were good.

I'm meh about this update. Some changes were good but some were just really pointless and others pure dumb.

[Poppet]

In some ways the phlog buff is an indirect nerf to early taunt canceling.

The Jag nerf is deserved it's super broken and still is. The Rescue Ranger has been like the only engineer primary that anyone uses.

The sapper buff might be a bit much. But it's an engineer favored matchup. Most of it's value is just giving you enough time to cloak if things go wrong.

I think everything in this patch but the chargin targe nerf and phlog invuln is a welcome change.

[Ron Swansons Stache]

Engineers are now rendered useless. Between the weapon nerfs and the .5 second wait before sentries are re-enabled after a sapper is taken off is absurd. And I barely play engi.

But in cooler (pretty unrelated) news, I ended up getting linked to a B4NNY rant on reddit after this update and turns out our very own .sf| dcleo was playing with B4NNY and DOMINATING:

[that shiny mudkip]

as an egnis and pyro main i disapprove of this update : (
nerf beggars more pls
I JUST PLAYED PYRO AND IM SO MAD ;-; it feels a lot slower

[Lia_Rein]

The Half-Zatoichi
Now considered a sword (increased holster and deploy time and increased range)
Honorbound changed. Deals 50 self damage on holster if no kill was made. Cannot be holstered if player is below 50 life and no kill was made.
100% life restore on kill changed to 50% health gain on kill that can result in overheal
No random crits

rip secrets

They were pretty lame secrets anyway lol

I like this update a lot apart from poor ol engie!

[Hodgepodge]

They killed the best way to get kills on Pyro and made the Phlog king.

BUT THEY MADE THE AXTINGUISHER EVEN WORSE THAN BEFORE! Whats the point of criting (for 131 damage now, thanks 33% decrease damage) a burning target if it takes a year to pull out the axe (75% slower switch to speed)? Plus it takes 6 monthes to swing the axe (20% slower swing speed) anyway, giving your burning target plenty of time to kill you, run away, or just stop being on fire.

RIP Engies.

Thanks for the medic buffs I guess.

[Poppet]

Axtinguisher is pretty much the same as it was prior to it's former nerf. You'll need to add an extra millisecond or two burn damage for demos, soldiers, heavies, and medics. Non-degreaser flamethrowers do enough afterburn to finish off.

You just don't really get the new weapon switch times bonuses that all classes got. It's definitely better than what is was. I still don't understand why they nerfed it when powerjack was and still is better.


The Tide Turner nerf looks worse than what I expected from how they worded it. It can't get full criticals irregardless of how long you charge. From how they worded it I was under the impression it was only if you forced a shield bash for criticals. The only weapon that can shield bash + minicrit kill is the skullcutter which is the only weapon I ever use anyway. Using any other weapon with the Tide Turner feels stupid when you hit under every FUCKING BREAKCAP. While the Skullcutter can still random critical even while charging too.

GG Valve you nerfed every Tide Turner playstyle except the strongest one Skullcutter. I didn't really ever use them because they were bad but now they're really unviable garbage. Fucking Valve.

[L0wsound]

Oh sad day
https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/3 ... he_sentry/

[Doctor Galaxy]

Oh sad day
https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/3 ... he_sentry/

Yeah, I've been going nothing but C&D and Red Tape on Valve servers and just messing with Engies, since it works when you're invisible.
Pretty funny how this one guy just accepted that the update was causing his buildings not to work.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

Can we all just agree that the phlogistinator is ridiculously overpowered cuz all you need to do is spam m1 and m2 and then voila! Free fu*king invulnerability and the power to clean a room in seconds...no milliseconds. And then once that's over you can just rinse and repeat in another few seconds. >_<

[Poppet]

I wouldn't say phlog is overpowered. It requires a whole lot of positioning sense. It doesn't really have strong braindead deathmatching like soldier or heavy. Even when you have phlog crits soldier would still have the dm advantage over you. What makes phlog powerful is you can kill a lot of players really fast. A given class out of a group can easily deal with you if you don't play from a position of power even when you have so much when popping crits.

Invuln is rather stupid though.

[Balubish]

The Half-Zatoichi
Now considered a sword (increased holster and deploy time and increased range)
Honorbound changed. Deals 50 self damage on holster if no kill was made. Cannot be holstered if player is below 50 life and no kill was made.
100% life restore on kill changed to 50% health gain on kill that can result in overheal
No random crits

rip secrets

Guess no more Fingurai for you then?

as an egnis and pyro main i disapprove of this update : (
nerf beggars more pls
I JUST PLAYED PYRO AND IM SO MAD ;-; it feels a lot slower

You main engie? I dont think I have ever seen you play engie... But if you are a main engie im happy that I havent met you while you are. Mason is already pissing ppl off

In other news, they didnt nerf the Loch for the fourth time woohoo!!!
I feel like they do this shitty changes make ppl use other weapons so we use our other ones, or valve is just dumb and like to piss off ppl.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

I wouldn't say phlog is overpowered. It requires a whole lot of positioning sense. It doesn't really have strong braindead deathmatching like soldier or heavy. Even when you have phlog crits soldier would still have the dm advantage over you. What makes phlog powerful is you can kill a lot of players really fast. A given class out of a group can easily deal with you if you don't play from a position of power even when you have so much when popping crits.

Invuln is rather stupid though.

Woah...woah....woah...easy there Poppet. I know a LOT of players who would disagree with that first sentence of yours right there (not saying you are completely wrong though so don't get angry at me XD). Anyway, you have a good point with the positioning sense argument, although I am pretty sure it is safe to say even newbies wont have that much trouble once they know how to correctly position themselves and I assure you once they understand how to use the phlog and scorch shot together trust me positioning sense is not needed and rather pointless. Why? All you have to do is mindlessly aim at large groups of enemies while hiding behind the frontlines like a coward getting ready to charge the mmph meter and believe me Miss Poppet, that doesn not take a lot of effort to do. So the fact that it takes a few shots of a scorch shot and a quick ambush with a bit of phlogistonator flames going on your enemy is what makes the phlog so...'overpowered'. NO EFFORT is needed if you know how to use it right and have figured out how to deal damage while hiding behind your teammates. And once you do that, voila! Crits invulnerability and a house cleaning at your service! Furthermore, after playing a bit of heavy and soldier and PYRO, I find that pyro kills are much more easier than soldier and heavy kills. So your statement about braindead deathmatching as heavy and soldier is not entirely true, but I would like to conclude that it depends on the individual player's capabilities. However, acknowledge this, the speed of the soldier and heavy is considerably slower than the pyro's moving speed, thus making heavy and soldier more prone to backstabs and headshots and damage overall. I think it is safe to say that the pyro class also has its fair share of brain dead players and there are people who argue playing pyro is more easier than heavy and soldier. And the damage the pyro can deal at close range should be worth noting. Rocket jumping, knowing where to shoot rockets, knowing when to spy check and knowing when to rev up your mingun is extremely important for heavies and soldiers. What about pyro? All you have to do is airblast and light things up in fire, easy points. But anyway, as I said before, classes work differently for different people, some harder than others, some easier than others. We cannot ultimately make the decision and claim this is over powered or underpowered or if this thing should be buffed or nerfed by ourselves, because it is our own t perspective. At the end of the day, the majority opinion is valued and in this case the majority of the players in the tf2 community from my perspective see the phlog as OP.

[Poppet]

And I would disagree with a lot of people too. That's my opinion.

Game sense applies to Pyro too. If you can ambush with Phlog you could ambush with Heavy or Soldier too but neither of them will be completely dealt with by just slowing/pushing them.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

And I would disagree with a lot of people too. That's my opinion.

Game sense applies to Pyro too. If you can ambush with Phlog you could ambush with Heavy or Soldier too but neither of them will be completely dealt with by just slowing/pushing them.

Slowing and pushing them? What does that mean? Sorry XD Well, it depends on the situation you're in. If you're a spy/sniper or if there's a friendly spy/sniper all it takes is a few seconds of a distraction and a backstab/headshot would deal with them. Pyros can maneuver and dodge far more easily cuz of their faster movement speed so they could still have a chance of surviving and avoiding spam and gunfire. And random crits. Don't forget that too The amount of times I PERSONALLY avoided deaths at the hands of a heavy or a soldier because of a random crit is ridiculous. Also, are you being healed by a med? Are you with another teammate? The list of situations and circumstances go on. Clearly, there is no definitive answer here.

[Balubish]

And I would disagree with a lot of people too. That's my opinion.

Game sense applies to Pyro too. If you can ambush with Phlog you could ambush with Heavy or Soldier too but neither of them will be completely dealt with by just slowing/pushing them.

Slowing and pushing them? What does that mean? Sorry XD Well, it depends on the situation you're in. If you're a spy/sniper or if there's a friendly spy/sniper all it takes is a few seconds of a distraction and a backstab/headshot would deal with them. Pyros can maneuver and dodge far more easily cuz of their faster movement speed so they could still have a chance of surviving and avoiding spam and gunfire. And random crits. Don't forget that too The amount of times I PERSONALLY avoided deaths at the hands of a heavy or a soldier because of a random crit is ridiculous. Also, are you being healed by a med? Are you with another teammate? The list of situations and circumstances go on. Clearly, there is no definitive answer here.

Well he probably means that a hmmmppfff fucking pyro that manage to go behind enemy lines and probably kill half team in one mpphhhfff load. You cant do that with any other weapon unless you have a crits medic.
Other than that its pretty useless. With Ubermedic, its fears. Alone, meh. Unless you manage to do this^^

[MGunz]

I read through 2 pages of thread and nobody has commented on the health buff for Concheror and Cozy Camper? Does anyone else find this questionable and unnecessary, or can someone talk some sense and logic into me?

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

I read through 2 pages of thread and nobody has commented on the health buff for Concheror and Cozy Camper? Does anyone else find this questionable and unnecessary, or can someone talk some sense and logic into me?

It doesn't need to be commented on. The changes for those 2 items are so ridiculous and pathetic it doesn't even deserve to be discussed. What on earth was Valve thinking when they released this update? Some changes were great, but others made me go like wtf. Volvo has yet again, fked up. In my opinion.

[MGunz]

I read through 2 pages of thread and nobody has commented on the health buff for Concheror and Cozy Camper? Does anyone else find this questionable and unnecessary, or can someone talk some sense and logic into me?

It doesn't need to be commented on. The changes for those 2 items are so ridiculous and pathetic it doesn't even deserve to be discussed. What on earth was Valve thinking when they released this update? Some changes were great, but others made me go like wtf. Volvo has yet again, fked up. In my opinion.

Well at least you are on the same page as me about it, then.

[Doctor Galaxy]

I read through 2 pages of thread and nobody has commented on the health buff for Concheror and Cozy Camper? Does anyone else find this questionable and unnecessary, or can someone talk some sense and logic into me?

Personally, I feel that on the Cozy Camper it was implemented that was so that it received more attention, because waiting 60 seconds was equivalent to 60 hp, and a lot progresses within a second as it is.
On the Conch, it gives Soldier a way of getting hp without a Med, but like Med's default healing rate, it doesn't rev up fast to 4 if he's getting peppered or in combat, which can hurt him even more if a Heavy is on his ass.

Phlog's easy to beat anyways, as it just comes to distancing themselves from the Pyro and having your team around (with enough gamesense) to counter the w+m1. Demo should lay a carpet of stickies around the Pyro, and Soldier should be able to distance himself enough to not worry about taking blast damage when it actually happens. Everyone else should be smart enough to be long gone from him by the end of the taunt.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

I read through 2 pages of thread and nobody has commented on the health buff for Concheror and Cozy Camper? Does anyone else find this questionable and unnecessary, or can someone talk some sense and logic into me?

Personally, I feel that on the Cozy Camper it was implemented that was so that it received more attention, because waiting 60 seconds was equivalent to 60 hp, and a lot progresses within a second as it is.
On the Conch, it gives Soldier a way of getting hp without a Med, but like Med's default healing rate, it doesn't rev up fast to 4 if he's getting peppered or in combat, which can hurt him even more if a Heavy is on his ass.

Phlog's easy to beat anyways, as it just comes to distancing themselves from the Pyro and having your team around (with enough gamesense) to counter the w+m1. Demo should lay a carpet of stickies around the Pyro, and Soldier should be able to distance himself enough to not worry about taking blast damage when it actually happens. Everyone else should be smart enough to be long gone from him by the end of the taunt.

Good points about the phlog Doc, but there is a few flaws in your argument. How would one know when to distance themselves from a phlog pyro? How would a demo know when to lay a carpet of stickies? If he times it wrong he ends up wasting his time and stickies when he could have been doing something else that would actually benefit him and his team. What if the phlog pyro is really sneaky and remains hidden out of the enemy's view and comes in cleaning out the enemy when they are making a major important push and are distracted? It really isn't that easy once you think about it, every class has their own priorities to think about and not waste time focusing on a phlog pyro who could easily play with the enemy's mind picking times where the opposition is most vulnerable and preoccupied with fighting, being totally oblivious to their surroundings. Yes, everyone should be smart enough to be long gone by the end of the taunt, but what if they never saw the phlog pyro in the first place? What if they were distracted? It is things like these that you have to consider. One more IMPORTANT NOTE, the invulnerability. That is what makes the phlog EXTREMELY HARD TO COUNTER. Spy mains like me now have a hard time feeling guilty not being able to kill a phlog pyro during their disgusting taunt of mockery which then ultimately leads to their teammates demise. That my friend, is probably the most infuriating thing about this abomination of a weapon.

[Poppet]

They just brought them in line with medic's regeneration. In the conch's case it means you'll be losing a lot of health regen if you rocket jump or take damage but if you play it safe you'll be getting better heals. Cozy Camper wasn bad and got buffed to quadrupled healing when not taking any damage for a period of time. It's probably still bad but it's still better to be a more viable choice.

Both of them are really good changes. The update changes are all really good except the demoknight changes and phlog invuln.

They didn't has much nerf demoknight as much as they made it unfun and limited the viable choices you can use. It's really strong still but all the already weak options were made completely useless.


Like said, Shadow. If phlog pyro could do it a drop bear heavy or demoman or whatever could do it too. They're not as EASILY DEALT WITH though. You're going to have to kill them to make them stop. A phlog pyro can be knocked back and be made completely useless or just outright killed as well even.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

They just brought them in line with medic's regeneration. In the conch's case it means you'll be losing a lot of health regen if you rocket jump or take damage but if you play it safe you'll be getting better heals. Cozy Camper wasn bad and got buffed to quadrupled healing when not taking any damage for a period of time. It's probably still bad but it's still better to be a more viable choice.

Both of them are really good changes. The update changes are all really good except the demoknight changes and phlog invuln.

They didn't has much nerf demoknight as much as they made it unfun and limited the viable choices you can use. It's really strong still but all the already weak options were made completely useless.

Don't you think the melee range for the half zatoichi is kinda ridiculous Poppet? And, that full health regen and full charge regained with the tide turner when killing with half zatoichi and tide turner both equipped is....frustrating.

[Poppet]

They just brought them in line with medic's regeneration. In the conch's case it means you'll be losing a lot of health regen if you rocket jump or take damage but if you play it safe you'll be getting better heals. Cozy Camper wasn bad and got buffed to quadrupled healing when not taking any damage for a period of time. It's probably still bad but it's still better to be a more viable choice.

Both of them are really good changes. The update changes are all really good except the demoknight changes and phlog invuln.

They didn't has much nerf demoknight as much as they made it unfun and limited the viable choices you can use. It's really strong still but all the already weak options were made completely useless.

Don't you think the melee range for the half zatoichi is kinda ridiculous Poppet? And, that full health regen and full charge regained with the tide turner when killing with half zatoichi and tide turner both equipped is....frustrating.

That's main appeal of the Tide Turner. That you can do that. I didn't really use the Half Zatoichi all that much because all non-sword range melees are terrible. It probably got buffed from getting it now. It doesn't get full heals anymore btw. But the only thing that is really viable with the tide turner now is the skullcutter everything else has to at least two hit to kill and has no high damage potential.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

They just brought them in line with medic's regeneration. In the conch's case it means you'll be losing a lot of health regen if you rocket jump or take damage but if you play it safe you'll be getting better heals. Cozy Camper wasn bad and got buffed to quadrupled healing when not taking any damage for a period of time. It's probably still bad but it's still better to be a more viable choice.

Both of them are really good changes. The update changes are all really good except the demoknight changes and phlog invuln.

They didn't has much nerf demoknight as much as they made it unfun and limited the viable choices you can use. It's really strong still but all the already weak options were made completely useless.


Like said, Shadow. If phlog pyro could do it a drop bear heavy or demoman or whatever could do it too. They're not as EASILY DEALT WITH though. You're going to have to kill them to make them stop. A phlog pyro can be knocked back and be made completely useless or just outright killed as well even.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't heavies and demos also vulnerable to knockback and cant they also be rendered useless? Demos are extremely vulnerable to scouts who know how to avoid sticky spam and pipes so it makes them a target for close range combat and heavies are slow which means they cannot possibly keep up with a faster class and long range they're useless and prey to an awaiting sniper. I am pretty sure (in counter to your easily dealt with statement) that a player will have more of a hard time fighting a pyro who can maneuver more quickly than a heavy and a demo whose speed is slower thus making it hard for them to keep up with your maneuverability. There are just too many variables here to make a definitive answer.

[Doctor Galaxy]

Good points about the phlog Doc

Thanks.

How would one know when to distance themselves from a phlog pyro? How would a demo know when to lay a carpet of stickies? If he times it wrong he ends up wasting his time and stickies when he could have been doing something else that would actually benefit him and his team.

See, this is the thing. Once the Pyro ends his taunt, then he's free to do whatever. Within that time limit, you can place at least three stickies near the Pyro, which are more than enough to kill it. Currently, a Phlog Pyro without charge is not an immediate threat to the team, but if he starts to taunt / or you are aware that he has charge, that's when the team should be able to decide on a plan of action. This is easier for Soldiers, as the phlog cannot airblast, which can render the charge next to useless if the Soldier is able to subdue the Pyro within two or three rockets. Heavy is about concentrated fire anyways, so it shouldn't be a problem if he's a fair distance away from it.

What if the phlog pyro is really sneaky and remains hidden out of the enemy's view and comes in cleaning out the enemy when they are making a major important push and are distracted? It really isn't that easy once you think about it, every class has their own priorities to think about and not waste time focusing on a phlog pyro who could easily play with the enemy's mind picking times where the opposition is most vulnerable and preoccupied with fighting, being totally oblivious to their surroundings.

Pyro was designed to be a class that ambushes. The Backburner and the Gun Mettle Axtinguisher proves this. Before, if a Pyro wanted to use the Phlog charge effectively, he would have to find a safe place to go to actually utilize the charge, otherwise a single Heavy could mow him down at least .5 seconds after the taunt ended. The knockback resistance was probably to prevent early taunt cancelling and Valve probably saw that knockbacked Phlogs could still retain some Uber from the taunt, which would make it even more broken. You probably already know this, but Spy and Sniper are both classes that plays with the enemy's mind and keeps them distracted from the objective if they can do their jobs effectively. Spy also bases itself in HL to work against distracted enemies to get picks, so again, that's something that they have in common.

Yes, everyone should be smart enough to be long gone by the end of the taunt, but what if they never saw the phlog pyro in the first place? What if they were distracted?

Yes, I agree that it's annoying to see a Phlog from out of seemingly nowhere, but that's a problem on the player's part for not being perspective enough to notice it and the team's fault for not being able to do something before it's over. The weapon's intentions are full crits and a hp refill for doing fire damage at the cost of airblast. If the Pyro, who does not have any items to disguise or cloak gets behind your team, that's a gold star on his part. Also I said earlier, Spy makes his best plays when he is behind enemy lines when the enemy is distracted.

It is things like these that you have to consider. One more IMPORTANT NOTE, the invulnerability. That is what makes the phlog EXTREMELY HARD TO COUNTER. Spy mains like me now have a hard time feeling guilty not being able to kill a phlog pyro during their disgusting taunt of mockery which then ultimately leads to their teammates demise. That my friend, is probably the most infuriating thing about this abomination of a weapon.

The invuln means nothing. All it does is make the Pyro a giant beacon to alert others to run away or to better position themselves. I was playing against Hodge the other day on PASS Time when he went Phlog, and it was simple to distance my self from him and wait for the invuln to pass so that I could have at him with the minigun. Even at that, Sentry guns remain to be a hard counter of the Phlog and the Medic's flame resistance on the Vaccinator. Besides, since you know the danger of a Phlog now, it should give you more incentive to run or use your revolver to shoot at the thing after it's done. If Valve could reduce the damage on the phlog, say 25% or more, then people wouldn't complain as much because it wouldn't outright kill a person.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't heavies and demos also vulnerable to knockback and cant they also be rendered useless? Demos are extremely vulnerable to scouts who know how to avoid sticky spam and pipes so it makes them a target for close range combat and heavies are slow which means they cannot possibly keep up with a faster class and long range they're useless and prey to an awaiting sniper.

It's already aware that Scout is Demo's hard counter, as Scout is a glass cannon and Demo's lack of hitscan, so he's essentially dead if he doesn't maneuver correctly as you said, and Sniper will outclass anybody outside of another Sniper due to his high skill ceiling if he's given the oppertunity. Back to the topic however, Scouts have the ability to stun Phlogs using the Sandman and use the Flying Guillotine afterwards for a 150 hit with bleed. The Sandman is essentially a way of Scouts getting the upper hand on a Heavy as the stun not only leaves the Heavy open, but he also has to rev up his minigun again. Not only that, but the Mittens and the Sandman can stun a ubered combo, so contemplate that.

I am pretty sure that a player will have more of a hard time fighting a pyro who can maneuver more quickly than a heavy and a demo whose speed is slower thus making it hard for them to keep up with your maneuverability. There are just too many variables here to make a definitive answer.

While variables can influence many situations, it comes down to sheer damage output, and this is about a class with the second least dps heavy primary weapon. Demos and Soldiers have the ability to blastjump away, Scouts and Meds have enhanced run speed, and I'm more than certain a revved up Heavy is not going to run away from a charged phlog Pyro.

tl;dr, Yes, phlog is currently broken. Needs a damage nerf and a decreased charge rate, but can be easy to counter with better positioning and good gamesense. Getting close to a phlog Pyro and trying to melee it is literal suicide unless you've got a Vacci/Uber med.