Balance discussion for Sticky Launcher

[Alchemist]

If you don't think demoman is overpowered, consider this:

In competitive TF2, he is considered the second most important target, only the medic is more important to kill on the opposing team.
If that doesn't convince you, then I'm sorry, there's no hope for you in this subject and you shouldn't post in this topic.

My main issue with Demoman is that he can use the sticky launcher very aggressively and potentially decimate the opposing team, which it should be able to, but not on offense as easily as it does.

My idea for balance on the Sticky Launcher is this: Make the stickies armed after they've been "stuck" for half a second or maybe a full second, this would encourage demomen to play more defensively, as they should.


What do you guys think?

[GoDM1N]

Scottish resistance


As far as demo being OP in competitive matches. We have all talk, random crits and don't allow team switching, so we're about as uncompetitive as you can get in a pub. Imo balance in pubs and competitive matches are two very different things. I'd say a heavy medic combo is more effective than a medic demo/solly because of the amount of targets you're generally dealing with. Not saying a medic heavy is better for taking out sentries, but you don't really see sentries as often in a 6v6 either.

[Alchemist]

Just because Critsandvich isn't a competitive server doesn't mean demoman doesn't need balance changes.

[Wakka]

how does the fact that he's the second most important pick in comp prove he's overpowered? if he was weaker another class would just be the second most important pick...

[mrpikmin2]

OH GOD PLEASE NOT THIS THREAD.

GO BACK TO SPUF!!

[stanley]

i suppose medic is the most overpowered class then?

[Bagger Vance]

The reason demoman is the second most important pick in competitive is because he's so good at area denial, and if you had 2 you could completely shut off areas and it would be crazy.

[Alchemist]

i suppose medic is the most overpowered class then?

Medic is not overpowered, just the most important. It only makes sense, and medic should stay that way.

[Konfy]

If you don't think demoman is overpowered, consider this:

In competitive TF2, he is considered the second most important target, only the medic is more important to kill on the opposing team.
If that doesn't convince you, then I'm sorry, there's no hope for you in this subject and you shouldn't post in this topic.

Maybe the demo is overpowered so is the heavy and the medic in his special way. Also being the most important target in 6v6 doesn't mean he is overpowered, it can be every class. It's just a matter of map, situation and playstyle (I'm not saying that the medic and demo aren't the most important targets in most situations). So imo there is no need to change anything, classlimits are all you need and maybe a white or blacklist.

The reason demoman is the second most important pick in competitive is because he's so good at area denial, and if you had 2 you could completely shut off areas and it would be crazy.

^this, similar reasons for heavy and medic limits.

btw ETF2L Rules:
Medic, Heavy and Demoman limit 1, every other class 2
Standard weapons, Blutsauger, Kritzkrieg, Übersaw, Crusader’s Crossbow and The Original (gets considered as weapon reskin)

works perfectly fine, best 6v6 gameplay we ever had (can't talk about the 2 demos and 2 medics time, but I guess no one here can).


Ze German has spoken

[medkitz]

As a Pyro enthusiast I vote for stickies to not exist unless Scottish Resistance. Honestly I hate the stickies. I have to use a ridiculous amount of ammo to cancel them out and even if I miss one, I take a good third of my health.

[Alchemist]

Scottish resistance is great, its the style of play Demoman was meant for. Unlike the default sticky.

[Wakka]

Scottish resistance is great, its the style of play Demoman was meant for. Unlike the default sticky.

i really dislike this sort of argument, if you're going to claim your opinion is what "Demoman was meant for" please point out where valve ever said this is definitively how it's supposed to be played.

[Konfy]

Scottish resistance is great, its the style of play Demoman was meant for. Unlike the default sticky.

If this is really what the demoman was supposed to be, then why didn't valve change it in 4 1/2 years? What you think it's supposed to be is just the easiest part of the demoman play and the scottish resistance made it even easier and more annoying.

[Alchemist]

Valve once made a thread asking if they should nerf the sticky launcher, a bunch of people came on and whined about it so they chickened out and never nerfed him.

[Konfy]

just asking if they should change it doesn't mean it was supposed to be like you would like it to be.

[Spyder]

OH GOD PLEASE NOT THIS THREAD.

GO BACK TO SPUF!!

Did somebody say SPUF?

[Vetos]

[Valve] never nerfed [the Demoman].

Really now.

http://www.teamfortress.com/119/

Code: Select all

September 28, 2007
> Demoman grenades (not stickybombs) no longer explode on contact after the first bounce

February 28, 2008
> Reduced Demoman's maximum sticky bomb reserve ammo from 30 to 16
> Reduced Demoman's maximum grenade launcher reserve ammo from 40 to 24

January 7, 2009
> Any weapons that fire bullets (shotguns, sniper's machine gun, heavy's minigun, etc.) can now break apart the Demoman's stickybombs

February 16, 2009
>Sticky bombs now get a reduced close range damage ramp up (like Rocket Launcher & Syringe Gun)
    Ultimately reduces damage done by sticky bombs to enemies < 512 units from the Demoman

Yep. They have definitely never nerfed the Demoman.

[GoDM1N]

Guys you're missing the point. Demoman is OP, and needs to be nerfed.

[Rologton]

Meh. The Sticky Launcher is powerful as fuck and in the right hands can be devastating (see: b4nny), but Demo isn't OP. He is worthless in close range, so a Scout can lock him down, a Pyro can make his spam completely null and void, and a good Soldier can take him out with a dive bomb.

As for the Scottish Resistance, in some ways it's what VALVe had in mind. Stickies were supposed to be used to lay traps and to deny areas, amongst other things. They do that well, but they're much better for other things. I've heard some really good Demos say that people only use the Grenades if they don't know how to use the Sticky Launcher to its full extent. It's deffinately the most versatile weapon in the game, but it's not OP.

Also, as someone who spends way too much time on SPUF, that is a 100% accurate representation, Spyder.

[medkitz]

Meh. The Sticky Launcher is powerful as fuck and in the right hands can be devastating (see: b4nny), but Demo isn't OP. He is worthless in close range, so a Scout can lock him down, a Pyro can make his spam completely null and void, and a good Soldier can take him out with a dive bomb.

As for the Scottish Resistance, in some ways it's what VALVe had in mind. Stickies were supposed to be used to lay traps and to deny areas, amongst other things. They do that well, but they're much better for other things. I've heard some really good Demos say that people only use the Grenades if they don't know how to use the Sticky Launcher to its full extent. It's deffinately the most versatile weapon in the game, but it's not OP.

Also, as someone who spends way too much time on SPUF, that is a 100% accurate representation, Spyder.

I still don't know what SPUF is lol..

[Wakka]

As for the Scottish Resistance, in some ways it's what VALVe had in mind. Stickies were supposed to be used to lay traps and to deny areas,

did gabe tell you this

[stanley]

its what the demoman himself said

[Saber]

As someone who probably has less hours on TF2 than anybody else here, I'll just go ahead and say that kritzed demomen are assmangling, buttdevastating, rectumravaging, and all that good shit.
But I don't personally believe the sticky is OP. A scout straight wrecks a demoman at close range, and possibly even mid-range if they're using the pistol. I wouldn't say that it's OP, but I'm too lazy right now and should-be-doing-english-essay to talk about it more.

[Jettrax]

Personally there is nothing else that pisses me off more than a very skilled demoman that can aim a grenade launcher and spam stickies right at your feet.
The only class that can really combat it is pyro and that usually wastes alot of ammo and you end up getting killed with no primary ammo.

[medkitz]

Personally there is nothing else that pisses me off more than a very skilled demoman that can aim a grenade launcher and spam stickies right at your feet.
The only class that can really combat it is pyro and that usually wastes alot of ammo and you end up getting killed with no primary ammo.

You read my fucking mind. Except that people who can aim a grenade launcher doesn't piss me off since they earned the kill.

[Saber]

TRIPLE AIRSHOT GRENADE

[Rologton]

Meh. The Sticky Launcher is powerful as fuck and in the right hands can be devastating (see: b4nny), but Demo isn't OP. He is worthless in close range, so a Scout can lock him down, a Pyro can make his spam completely null and void, and a good Soldier can take him out with a dive bomb.

As for the Scottish Resistance, in some ways it's what VALVe had in mind. Stickies were supposed to be used to lay traps and to deny areas, amongst other things. They do that well, but they're much better for other things. I've heard some really good Demos say that people only use the Grenades if they don't know how to use the Sticky Launcher to its full extent. It's deffinately the most versatile weapon in the game, but it's not OP.

Also, as someone who spends way too much time on SPUF, that is a 100% accurate representation, Spyder.

I still don't know what SPUF is lol..

Steam Powered User Forums

I spend a lot of time on the TF2 board.

[Alchemist]

Don't be mad guys, I love discussions like this.

Who knows, you might just change my mind.

[stanley]

[medkitz]

i thnk mister stanley won

[duck]

I love to play demoman, Its my second most played class behind soldier (though I've been playing a lot of pyro lately).
The sticky launcher is a very effective weapon, I use it to spam, and take out enemys in choke points, along with 1 v 1 encounters. The sticky launcher is one of the most versitile weapons (besides the degreaser) in the game, if you know how to use it correctly (cornelius is a prime example) you are a force to be reckoned with. If you dont, you are an easy target for scouts and pyros and soldiers.

There are many people who don't use the sticky launcher and still do very well as demoman, vier von kruz, failhorse and godmin are prime examples of this. Vier uses the "Kritana" and he can charge very well, he doesn't need the sticky launcher because of his ability to attack and defend himself when he needs to (falling back when he is unable to kill someone)

Failhorse and Godmin both use the loch n load (and the splended screen and charge n targe respectively) (I use it also, but I pair it with the sticky launcher and ulla pool caber for the defense buff) because they are able to aim very well with it, firing mainly in choke points and taking out multiple enemys.

The question is, "Is the sticky launcher over powered?" My answer, no.

[Smeemo]

Winbombs are easy to use defensively or offensively. But their ease of use is countered by the fact that the Demoman the second least-maneuverable class (accounting for rocket jumping making Soldier one of the most maneuverable classes), and his killing ability turns to shit at close range. Scout is a hard counter.

[doppelganger]

I would say that the sticky launcher is the most powerful weapon in the game, once again opinion, but I don't think it should be nerfed. In some ways it's easy mode, but like all of the classes, they have room to be so much more and you know when you've played against someone who has taken the class beyond it's obvious abilities.

In fact, nerfing in general is a bad habit, the most successful patches I've seen are buffs and not nerfs... if one weapon is too strong, then make other ones equally as strong... of course this is within reason.

Regardless, Scout should be nerfed... give them a timer where they can only run ridiculously fast for the same amount of time that a spy can be invisible, or increase the damage drop off at range of their weapons... or decrease their damage in general, or delete them from the game (fan of latter). Thanks.

[Wakka]

pleh a reel klass nub

[Spyder]

pleh a reel klass nub

Paladin it is, then.

[Smeemo]

In fact, nerfing in general is a bad habit, the most successful patches I've seen are buffs and not nerfs... if one weapon is too strong, then make other ones equally as strong... of course this is within reason.

Valve does seem to be a fan of that update balance philosophy. It's also apparent in DotA2, at least compared to the NERF ALL THE THINGS philosophy of LoL.

Regardless, Scout should be nerfed... give them a timer where they can only run ridiculously fast for the same amount of time that a spy can be invisible, or increase the damage drop off at range of their weapons... or decrease their damage in general, or delete them from the game (fan of latter). Thanks.

Can't agree there. Scouts are easily countered just like everything else. A Soldier should never, ever die to a Scout, for instance, and sentry guns deny the freedom of movement Scout needs to be effective. Bullet spread being on effectively lessens their mid-range damage, as well (in that the randomness of spread reduces reliable, consistent damage). Their playstyle is just as crucial to game balance as slow effing demomen with winbombs.

Also, Hi, Doppel! Long time no talk.

[medkitz]

I propose demoman to stop existing.

[Rologton]

Butbutbut... I love Scoot...

But if anything, Scouts are easier to counter than Demos by quite a bit. The only really effective counter to a Demo is a Scout that can get close to him. Get a Heavy with good tracking or slap down a Mini-Sentry (The bane of my existance) and you can lock down a Scout something serious. Mini's are really the worst thing to ever happen to Scouts. They're easy to build, expendable, and can cut off massive portions of the map to one. I have gone on total Scout rampages through KOTH maps or Hightower because thankfully nobody went Combat Engie. Than someone does and literally whole halves of the map are cut off for me. If a Scout comes across a Mini-Sentry and isn't at a range where he can spam Pistol at it, his best bet is to serf the nockback to safety or duck behind cover quickly, losing half or more of his health. Scout may be powerful, but it's really easy to make him useless. If you get a Lvl3 up, he either has to wait for his team to take it out, or Bonk! past and then be by himself in enemy territory, where he can't escape if he gets in trouble because he'd have to get past the Sentry again. It's sort of like the argument with DR Spies: Sure, they're still alive, but if they're always feigning than they're not doing anything. The Scout might still be alive, but if he can't access part of the map and he's not doing anything than he might as well be respawning.

[duck]

Team Fortress is just one big game of chess, there are classes that are direct counters to one another. If you have an experienced pyro who can airblast well (Medkits, Vetos, Myself) against a soldier the pyro usually wins. If a scout goes up against a level 3 sentry or a heavy they lose. Demoman is a counter to engineers, but can be taken out by scouts, good pyros, soldiers, heavys, snipers, spys.

[stanley]

i think spy, pyro, and heavy should all be removed from the game because i rage when any of them kill me

[Argent]

[medkitz]

Team Fortress is just one big game of chess, there are classes that are direct counters to one another. If you have an experienced pyro who can airblast well (Medkits, Vetos, Myself) against a soldier the pyro usually wins. If a scout goes up against a level 3 sentry or a heavy they lose. Demoman is a counter to engineers, but can be taken out by scouts, good pyros, soldiers, heavys, snipers, spys.

wakka is okay and necro wes can m2 like hell

[Bagger Vance]

Regardless, Scout should be nerfed... give them a timer where they can only run ridiculously fast for the same amount of time that a spy can be invisible, or increase the damage drop off at range of their weapons... or decrease their damage in general, or delete them from the game (fan of latter). Thanks.

[mrpikmin2]

where is the 1000 "OMFG HEAVY IS SO MUCH MORE OP GUISE!!"'s, followed by "OMFG JUST PLAY SPIE!"'s followed by all the "DUDE JUST USE A PIERO"'s, ect.

just play the game, valve doesn't give a flying fedora about what we say here.

[Guy]

I would have to say Medic would have to be the most overpowered class in the game... if he is used correctly.
He runs very fast, respectable health, self heals, provides healing, provides a large array of buffs, can deal massive dps, and crits chance is improved with damage AND healing output. He is only weakness is folks hate to heal... except me and few other sadistic folks.

Demoman is fine. Demos have to do a lot of planning and tricking to be very effective... and I can say Critsandvich has a lot of fine demos. I know I can't play demo worth a crap... and he is a lot harder to play than he seems to be.

Hell Crit has lots of great folks. I love you guys <3
I wish I could play more. ;-;

[doppelganger]

"OMFG PH33R IS SO MUCH MORE OP GUISE!!"'s

fixed it... Heavy, like every other class, has a ton of nooblets, but when there is a really good Heavy, they make me rage.

[Maringue]

There is one minor thing I would change with the demo. Make it so when you airblast stickies, they actually move more than 6 fucking inches...

But yeah, that's about it. As someone who plays medic a fair amount, the difference between kritzing someone like Fail or Fingerman as a demo and some random demo in the server is ridiculous. You can go from getting 5-8 kills to 1 kill if you are lucky. It's amazing how many demos out there have no idea what to do with a kritz.

So mostly it's skill that makes demo overpowered. Same with solider, scout, spy, heavy.... I think you get the picture.

And scouts are so easy to kill as a solider, just don't fire a rocket until they use their double jump. Once they hit that second just, BLAM! It's pretty easy since they can't change directions at that point. I also love to switch to my shottie while my rocket launcher still has a rocket or two in it. Then when the scout gets lazy and moves in for what they think is an easy kill, switch back and BLAM! Dead scoot.

Although I think they made the loch n load for payload. So many people standing close together for ze splash damage.

[Lime_Flavored_Dragon]

I actually really like the suggestion put forth in the OP.

[Prof_Schwartz]

There is one minor thing I would change with the demo. Make it so when you airblast stickies, they actually move more than 6 fucking inches...

Hence the name STICKY. They stick to the ground, they're not supposed to move, they have pricks on em that prevents them from moving.

[medkitz]

There is one minor thing I would change with the demo. Make it so when you airblast stickies, they actually move more than 6 fucking inches...

Hence the name STICKY. They stick to the ground, they're not supposed to move, they have pricks on em that prevents them from moving.

the problem is that when you m2 stickies in mid air. they barely go three fucking inches its either you stall ur deah or jst die

[Prof_Schwartz]

the problem is that when you m2 stickies in mid air. they barely go three fucking inches its either you stall ur deah or jst die

Ok well THAT'S a different story. Mid-air stickies should reflect like 'nades or rockets. I'm not terrible at Demo, but I'm no prodigy. Call me crazy or idiotic, but I don't like using the Sticky Launcher, I'm not good with it. I like using the regular grenade launcher, splendid shield, and (now) the strange bottle, or any (melee) weapon of choice.

[mrpikmin2]

"OMFG PH33R IS SO MUCH MORE OP GUISE!!"'s

fixed it... Heavy, like every other class, has a ton of nooblets, but when there is a really good Heavy, they make me rage.

exactly, when heavy is played really well it can very difficult to deal with. Personally? I think demo needs a lower clip and heavy needs more damage fall off. However, I know that valve does not care and tend to keep these opinions to myself as it accomplishes nothing to argue about this on the forums. I also realize that my perception of a class's power is extremely biased due to my personal favorite classes and my play-style. Arguing about which class is best is for the most part useless.


@ schwartz that loudout you specified I certainly don't consider op, the opposite really. But again, as I stated, I'm not going to argue about it.

completely unrelated but check out lei lei some time.

[Rologton]

There are a few changes that I would like to see in the game.

Stock Heavy's spin up should be reverted to pre-119th update. That was just unnecessary and makes ambushing him significantly less effective. Tomislav should get the Beta changes, because that thing makes ambushes goddamn suicide. The GRU need a legitimate downside because giving the tank that is Heavy that much mobility for something that is made null and void by a Medic or health pack is just awefull.

The Enforcer needs a legitimate downside so it's not a direct upgrade over the Revolver. Personally, I've argued countless times for it to be given the attribute "Can't activate cloak while active." There, actual downside, and bye-bye being able to DR away while spamming it. Also, Spy needs some serious fixes when it comes to disguises. Those poor legless Demos.

The Pomson needs to DIE IN FLAMES, but since that won't happen, in the least the drain atribute shouldn't activate if it passes through somebody. Seriously, I can't even use my pocket for protection? That infuriates me beyond anything. I spend all that time building Uber, and then get it taken away by someone spamming in my general area while they're protected by 216 hitpoint and 256 DPS of aimbot.

The Special Delivery Set needs a downside. Like, an actual one because it doesn't have one. The Shortstop can potentially outshine the Scattergun with really good aim, the Mad Milk is widely considered OP (you can tank a Heavy covered in it at point blank range if you get full meatshots), and if you have a stock bat reskin and a hat you get an extra 25 hitpoints. Yeah most people can't use it to its full effect, but it still should have some sort of a downside.

Other than those things, there are a ton of weapons that are in desperate need of buffs. The Big Earner is fucking useless, the Winger is laughably outshined by the Pistol, Crit-a-Cola is just awefull unless you're yz50 using the Shortstop, the Quick Fix can use some love to put it on par with the other mediguns. I would love to see it have a tether effect so that it makes the Medic using it super mobile (gets dragged along of double/rocket/sticky jumps), and for its Uber not to drain faster when switching targets. Also, the Stock Flamethrower needs that 10% Damage revert that's in Beta right now.

So yeah... Rolo's thoughts on the subject...

[medkitz]

I would like the enforcer to do the damage as it does now, but once on fire you cannot cloak for 3 seconds or if you were hit by a bullet you cannot cloak for 2 seconds. Also I would like the flare gun to do more damage on the crit. ( no not really, its just me wanting to be OP)

Also, pomson is fucking stupid.... The few and brave medics who dare to pocket me usually survive because they have an uber to run with, but since there's no point in tanking the shot since my medic will lose 10% anyways is just retarded. I want the pomson to do almost do damage and if Valve intends to keep the 10% off, at least make it where it's charged like the Mangler. It's just stupid. ( No splash )

Big earner needs the buff for sure, along with the l'etranger.

The scout milkman set doesn't really bother me so i'll stay away from that.

And I would love valve to make it where Degreaser does less direct fire damage, but airblast has a lower cost. Just my thoughts on how to make pyro OP.

[Alchemist]

In your opinion why is the big earner useless?

[Rologton]

In your opinion why is the big earner useless?

Getting cloak is not worth losing 25 health for, especially when you can regain the cloak through ammo or through picking up the weapon your enemy drops.