No more excuses for using dead ringer

[MamaWeegee]

Having crafted and tested the spy-cicle i have found that there really is no more excuses for using the dead ringer. So now people who deadring really are just playing easy mode spy

[VoltySquirrel]

Okay, thanks. I'm going to go back to easy mode spy.

[NBC011795]

Having crafted and tested the spy-cicle i have found that there really is no more excuses for using the dead ringer. So now people who deadring really are just playing easy mode spy

I do not see what you are getting at here, Most of the time I use the dead ringer to fake my death when I am disguised as another person on my team, which makes it appear like it was that class you killed, and doing so making a lot of people oblivious to the fact that there is a spy around.

I am not saying that I don't use it to put out the fire or save my skin or w/e, I would just rather use it than the Spy-sicle.
Besides the fact that I have a strange dead ringer and want to get it to Totally Ordinary to add it to my collection.

[Saber]

I'm going to use it anyway, dammit. 'Cause I suck.

[GoDM1N]

no it means its harder for pyros to find you if they light you on fire after your dead ringer

[Wakka]

play a real class loozers

[duck]

The dead ringer is a real crutch weapon in my opinion. I was talking to doppel a while back about playing spy, and he says he can't really use the iw due to his attachment to the dr. But I myself can't use the dr because I like the iw to much. Then again I don't play spy to often so I can't really say much

[Bagger Vance]

Yeah, dead ringing makes spy like hoovy easy.

[Rologton]

Yes and no.

Look at guys like stabby stabby and watsurdeal, 2 of the best Spies out there. They use both and are increadibly effective. Having talked with them/watched their videos/watched their streams, they agree that spamming the DR will only get you so far, and that in the end the IW is a much better option, you just have to be less agressive with it. Proper use of the DR can really fuck with your enemies, and yes, if necessary, get you out of a sticky situation, but the enemy becomes hella paranoid when they know you're going IW, and in the end you can set up much better stabs. For further example, check out leetbixkids, another E2 spy and the Australian admin. He mostly uses the IW and is hella good.

So yeah. The DR is powerful and usefull, but the IW is much more versatile. They both have different playstyles, though, it's just that the DR can potentially be spammed. It's sort of like the Degreaser. Used properly, it becomes hella good, but used improperly you learn bad habbits and it becomes a crutch. If anything, out of all the watches, the Cloak and Dagger is the biggest crutch and encourages the worst habbits. You don't learn cloak management, you don't really have to learn proper use of disguising, and it lets you sit in one spot being useless to the team while you try to set up that perfect pick.

Although some people swear that the only way Spy is effective in HL is to use the DR, most of the really great Spies will tell you that the IW is the most effective. Still, some spammy maps are so anti-Spy, they have to go DR just to be able to play. It's sort of like Scout on spamfests, the only real way for him to do anything is to run Bonk! and get behind everyone. Otherwise he's useless.

[medkitz]

i play pyro and i hate spyciles. i enjoy dr cause they cant juke me with a cloak unless thy got a spycicle in which i have to use m2 and jopefully contain the spy

[Capiturism]

But then.
There's the whole issue of.
Not having the weapon the class is particularly based on to use after a pyro has caught onto you.

Which ruins your chances for getting that oh-so important backstab and having to wait 15 seconds in your cloak and dagger for it to respawn just for it to evaporate again once a pyro catches onto you once more.
Fair enough.

Adding in that the whole "silent kill thing" isn't very silent as the freezing sound is sorta obvious.

[duck]

Adding in that the whole "silent kill thing" isn't very silent as the freezing sound is sorta obvious.

This is true. Using this set is a massive crutch, and if someone decides to play comp or even just lobbies, they are going to have a bad time.

[MamaWeegee]

As a spy i tend to try to avoid pyros completely i just found the spycicle useful for avoiding spycheck

[Rologton]

Dr. Enforcicle as a whole is just crutchtacular, and using the Spycicle with the DR is kind of a dick move, but asside from the Enforcer I genuinly think all of Spy's weapons are ballanced. Well, the Big Earner is in drastic need of a buff, but other than that, yeah.

A lot of Spys can handle Pyros through trickstabs anyway, so in some ways running the Spycicle makes them weaker to Pyros. Hell, a Spy using the Kunai and who knows trick stabs can become a Pyros worst nightmare. So it is a bit of a tradeoff.

[Wakka]

if a spy is consistently trickstabbing a pyro then the pyro is dumb

[MamaWeegee]

if a spy is consistently trickstabbing a pyro then the pyro is dumb

[doppelganger]

For further example, check out leetbixkids, another E2 spy and the Australian admin. He mostly uses the IW and is hella good.

LBK retired...

it's all in perspective, and it depends on what you're looking to do. If the enemy team is competent, then neither are going to work. Spy plays on the weakness of the enemy team, usually their stupidity. I use the IW when the enemy team tends to spy check a lot, I use the DR when the enemy team is spammy. I tend to pub a lot and play with all of you baddies that just hold m1 so I use DR mostly. In competition it really doesn't matter, what ever one gets you behind the enemy and then it boils down to timing, mostly when your team is pressuring their team or vice-versa.

I dislike the spycicle. Not only does it give bad pyros something to cry about, but why would you trade your weapon? I guess if you like civilian or spy crab, congrats, now you have an excuse... and I'm known for being heavy on the ambassador, but if a pyro is close enough to light me on fire, I want my knife... there are plenty of times where I let a pyro light me on fire to get a side stab or stair.

The enforcer is not OP, look at every other class in the game and the weapons they have. It's possibly on par with the rest of the weapons, but everyone is so used to spies being under-powered and constantly gimped because people cry a lot, that it appears to be "overpowered." Personally, I would of rather they increased the crit damage on the ambassador.

[medkitz]

if a spy is consistently trickstabbing a pyro then the pyro is dumb

totally, it rarely happens to me

Personally, I would of rather they increased the crit damage on the ambassador.

When I die to ambassador, headshot or not, I already give the spy his props.

[Rologton]

LBK retired...

No, he came back. I don't know if he's still admining for Australia, I defer to you actually being in the group to know that. I just have no life and like to follow guys that make cool Youtube videos and streams. (Not just Spys, mind you, they're just the only ones pertinent right now.)

Also, I feel like I should clarify: My posts may seem like I really know what I'm talking about, but a good chunk of it is me regurgitating what I learned while talking to much better Spys than me. I also see what they mean when they say stuff like that with my limited success with Spy (I can occasionally pull of corner stabs and have been able to set up decent chain stabs, but I'm far from even decent). What I said is really just the stuff they tell me to consider when I play Spy, because I'm (slowly) trying to learn him.

[Bagger Vance]

The enforcer is not OP, look at every other class in the game and the weapons they have. It's possibly on par with the rest of the weapons, but everyone is so used to spies being under-powered and constantly gimped because people cry a lot, that it appears to be "overpowered." Personally, I would of rather they increased the crit damage on the ambassador.

Well, I think the reason people say it's overpowered is because a spy shouldn't be able to do that much damage in direct combat when he's a mainly indirect class

[doppelganger]

The enforcer is not OP, look at every other class in the game and the weapons they have. It's possibly on par with the rest of the weapons, but everyone is so used to spies being under-powered and constantly gimped because people cry a lot, that it appears to be "overpowered." Personally, I would of rather they increased the crit damage on the ambassador.

Well, I think the reason people say it's overpowered is because a spy shouldn't be able to do that much damage in direct combat when he's a mainly indirect class

Scout caps points, it's an indirect class, why do they do as much damage as they do?

[Rologton]

The enforcer is not OP, look at every other class in the game and the weapons they have. It's possibly on par with the rest of the weapons, but everyone is so used to spies being under-powered and constantly gimped because people cry a lot, that it appears to be "overpowered." Personally, I would of rather they increased the crit damage on the ambassador.

Well, I think the reason people say it's overpowered is because a spy shouldn't be able to do that much damage in direct combat when he's a mainly indirect class

Scout caps points, it's an indirect class, why do they do as much damage as they do?

Scout isn't an indirect class, he's a hit and run/ambush class who has low hitpoints but needs to get into point blank range to do the most damage. To ballance that, he's also the most mobile class, and as such the best at capturing points, which is why he was given the X2 cap rate. Actually, VALVe initially intended for his sole foccuss to be capping, but revamped him into what his is today because, quite frankly, being the guy that only runs to a spot and stands on it for a while is kind of boring as fuck.

[doppelganger]

Well, I think the reason people say it's overpowered is because a spy shouldn't be able to do that much damage in direct combat when he's a mainly indirect class

Scout caps points, it's an indirect class, why do they do as much damage as they do?

Scout isn't an indirect class, he's a hit and run/ambush class who has low hitpoints but needs to get into point blank range to do the most damage. To ballance that, he's also the most mobile class, and as such the best at capturing points, which is why he was given the X2 cap rate. Actually, VALVe initially intended for his sole foccuss to be capping, but revamped him into what his is today because, quite frankly, being the guy that only runs to a spot and stands on it for a while is kind of boring as fuck.[/quote]
In tfc, scout ran slower, spy ran faster, and had a shotgun... spy has the same or less hitpoints as scout, his "mobility" is invisibility, which is on a timer. Scout has double jump, spy has a disguise kit. Spy can't cap points twice as fast but he has a sapper. Spy has backstab, scout has meat shots... so I digress to my earlier point, scout should have timered run speed =P

[Rologton]

Ah yes, but would Scout's run speed be extended technically indeffinately by knowing where ammo kits are?

[doppelganger]

Ah yes, but would Scout's run speed be extended technically indeffinately by knowing where ammo kits are?

sure, but maybe he shouldn't be allowed to attack while using his mobility? I mean, that would make it balanced...

p.s. then make numerous weapons that slow him down.. god I miss my tranquilizer.

[medkitz]

Ah yes, but would Scout's run speed be extended technically indeffinately by knowing where ammo kits are?

sure, but maybe he shouldn't be allowed to attack while using his mobility? I mean, that would make it balanced...

p.s. then make numerous weapons that slow him down.. god I miss my tranquilizer.

i motion for scouts to stop existing

[Boler]

If anything, out of all the watches, the Cloak and Dagger is the biggest crutch and encourages the worst habbits. You don't learn cloak management, you don't really have to learn proper use of disguising, and it lets you sit in one spot being useless to the team while you try to set up that perfect pick.

At the risk of starting an unrelated argument, I main the C&D, and while I do agree that it can encourage bad habits, I don't think it's a crutch weapon. There are some things you can do with that watch that you can't do with the IW as effectively, especially, if your willing to expose yourself, herding the enemy team. There have been numerous times where I've been seen, either intentionally or accidently, then cloaked and stood in place and watched people run where they think I went, or even know that I'm still there (ussually when I stop running before I'm done cloaking), but can't even find me in the same room because they expect me to be in a corner or running for ammo, when I'm just watching them in the dead center of the battlefield wasting their time.

Behind enemy lines, I don't stay cloaked at all, and rely more on staying out of site, disguising, and my own aim with my gun unless shit goes horribly wrong and I absolutely need to cloak. And even then, I don't have to leave the back lines because I can simply move to a less suspicious area or just wait out the random firing, which is something you can't do with either of the other two watches unless you happen to be near an enemy dispensor. It may have less cloak, but it does fit certain playstyles of the class very well, even if some (many?) people use it incorrectly.


--edit oh god I didn't realize this thread had three pages and thought this argument was relative to something--

[MamaWeegee]

If anything, out of all the watches, the Cloak and Dagger is the biggest crutch and encourages the worst habbits. You don't learn cloak management, you don't really have to learn proper use of disguising, and it lets you sit in one spot being useless to the team while you try to set up that perfect pick.

At the risk of starting an unrelated argument, I main the C&D, and while I do agree that it can encourage bad habits, I don't think it's a crutch weapon. There are some things you can do with that watch that you can't do with the IW as effectively, especially, if your willing to expose yourself, herding the enemy team. There have been numerous times where I've been seen, either intentionally or accidently, then cloaked and stood in place and watched people run where they think I went, or even know that I'm still there (ussually when I stop running before I'm done cloaking), but can't even find me in the same room because they expect me to be in a corner or running for ammo, when I'm just watching them in the dead center of the battlefield wasting their time.

Behind enemy lines, I don't stay cloaked at all, and rely more on staying out of site, disguising, and my own aim with my gun unless shit goes horribly wrong and I absolutely need to cloak. And even then, I don't have to leave the back lines because I can simply move to a less suspicious area or just wait out the random firing, which is something you can't do with either of the other two watches unless you happen to be near an enemy dispensor. It may have less cloak, but it does fit certain playstyles of the class very well, even if some (many?) people use it incorrectly.

A lot of people use it to neutralize spy check which was the topic of this thread I would consider the DR a crutch based solely on the fact people use it to keep themselves alive and not to actually use it how the watches were supposed to be used. To get behind enemy lines and take out key targets

[Zeno293]

i dont see any strange invis watches do you

[doppelganger]

If anything, out of all the watches, the Cloak and Dagger is the biggest crutch and encourages the worst habbits. You don't learn cloak management, you don't really have to learn proper use of disguising, and it lets you sit in one spot being useless to the team while you try to set up that perfect pick.

At the risk of starting an unrelated argument, I main the C&D, and while I do agree that it can encourage bad habits, I don't think it's a crutch weapon. There are some things you can do with that watch that you can't do with the IW as effectively, especially, if your willing to expose yourself, herding the enemy team. There have been numerous times where I've been seen, either intentionally or accidently, then cloaked and stood in place and watched people run where they think I went, or even know that I'm still there (ussually when I stop running before I'm done cloaking), but can't even find me in the same room because they expect me to be in a corner or running for ammo, when I'm just watching them in the dead center of the battlefield wasting their time.

Behind enemy lines, I don't stay cloaked at all, and rely more on staying out of site, disguising, and my own aim with my gun unless shit goes horribly wrong and I absolutely need to cloak. And even then, I don't have to leave the back lines because I can simply move to a less suspicious area or just wait out the random firing, which is something you can't do with either of the other two watches unless you happen to be near an enemy dispensor. It may have less cloak, but it does fit certain playstyles of the class very well, even if some (many?) people use it incorrectly.

A lot of people use it to neutralize spy check which was the topic of this thread I would consider the DR a crutch based solely on the fact people use it to keep themselves alive and not to actually use it how the watches were supposed to be used. To get behind enemy lines and take out key targets

it's designed to be used as part of the spy's mind game, you feign death, the enemy thinks you're dead, and stops chasing you. Not many spies use it well enough or you learn that a spy is using it and just spy check everywhere anyway. It's a get away tool, not necessarily an infiltration tool (although I do indeed use it for that myself)

[MamaWeegee]

i dont see any strange invis watches do you

What would it count? Time spent invisible?

[duck]

No ones replied for a few days, but i'll put in some more of my opinion and what not. Pyro is a fairly easy class to pick up and play. They know they need to spy check, and if successfully done they basically screw over the spy. The DR is used to combat this (combined with the spysickle) Pyros need to learn to stay with a target. What I do is airblast the spy toward the wall and right before his dr is used up, i take out the axtinguisher and take him out.

[Niko Jims]

As someone who played DR Spy for months, and switched back to IW, IW seems like the easy mode, tbh. Honestly, I find both watches pretty easy mode. Spy in general is easy, as long as there aren't 3+ pyros on the other team. Even the best Pyro's can't cover a whole map by themselves.

[mrpikmin2]

As someone who played DR Spy for months, and switched back to IW, IW seems like the easy mode, tbh. Honestly, I find both watches pretty easy mode. Spy in general is easy, as long as there aren't 3+ pyros on the other team. Even the best Pyro's can't cover a whole map by themselves.

it's easy mode if you just use your knife. However, to master spy, your ambassador must become your primary weapon if a stab isn't lined up perfectly.

[Niko Jims]

As someone who played DR Spy for months, and switched back to IW, IW seems like the easy mode, tbh. Honestly, I find both watches pretty easy mode. Spy in general is easy, as long as there aren't 3+ pyros on the other team. Even the best Pyro's can't cover a whole map by themselves.

it's easy mode if you just use your knife. However, to master spy, your ambassador must become your primary weapon if a stab isn't lined up perfectly.

But I do use my Amby. If anything, the Amby just makes the class 10 times easier.

[Saber]

I find that if a team is unaware, C&D is definitively easymode. You camp outside a spawn and get a few important picks, run away/die repeat.
I'm also learning how to not-dead-ring. Nilla invis watch regens cloak at a ridiculous rate if you know where all the ammo crates are on a map.
(Maybe l2aim might help me become better.)

[Spyder]

(Seeing anyone using anything BUT the Dead Ringer is rare these days.)
_________
Dead Ringer

+

Spycicle

+

Enforcer

=

[duck]

(Seeing anyone using anything BUT the Dead Ringer is rare these days.)
_________
Dead Ringer

+

Spycicle

+

Enforcer

=

I lol'd, this is a crutch set up though

Invisi-Watch

+

Stock Knife

+

Ambassitor (can't spell sorry)

=

Duck

[Punisher]

I personally don't really get all the rage for the spycicle, personally I find it to be a terrible weapon especially when used with the dead ringer, which I would argue is the worst watch for the spycicle. When I use the dead ringer I use it to get behind enemy lines and then to get back behind my teams line after I get a pick or a chain of kills. Pyro's rarely give me trouble unless I'm over extended, as I usually am able to make it back to my teammates when I'm spotted, and if the pyro wants to chase me to my teams heavy so be it. Now when you throw the spycicle in there your twirling your thumbs for 15 seconds waiting for your knife to come back. So with the spycicle I find my self doing more nothing than when I don't have it equipped and the number of times the 3 seconds of fireproof save me is minimal.

Now as for why the spycicle is better for other watches is when you use it behind enemy lines. If you use the spycicle behind enemy lines with the dead ringer then you have your brief cloak and fireproof to maybe get away. But then your stuck there with no knife or cloak, with people looking for you around the ammo/health... Now if you have one of the other watches, C&D especially you can still go invisible to continue evading and buy you time to regenerate your knife. So in my experience the best use of the spycicle is with the C&D and Ambassador. Whereas the Dr. Enforcicle just makes you a worse DR Enforcer spy.

Just my thoughts, the different watches are for vastly different play styles and the different knifes compliment certain play styles better, with dead ringer's style being just behind enemy lines, invisi watch for enemy sniper distance infiltration, and the C&D for extreme infiltration.