cp_dustpoll

[Kaiuu]

It seems that there is a great divide on the server about cp_dustbowl. Some people think its absolutely amazing, while other people would rather commit seppuku with a tv remote.

I personally don't really like dustbowl, I think its too chokepointy and has too long of a map length.

Thought I'd get the forums' opinions on this, so - survey
http://goo.gl/forms/Nu1Cq5SLMU
Feel free to post in le forums about your thoughts.

Fact - I am a very bored child that has a strange obsession with surveys

[Rumors]

Everyone has a map they like and don't like. I don't think Dustbowl is bad at all. If anything, lower the timer on stage 3 of the map, because that can drag on forever it seems.

And be ready to run back immediately the moment they cap first point on stage 1.

[TH3_SHAD0W_SAMUR4I]

I don't really mind dustbowl personally, but the choke points, the spam, the fluidity of gameplay and all the hullabaloo that happens in that map takes a lot of energy out of me, which ends up being quite irritating. And especially for Spy mains, Dustbowl is one of those maps that is quite hard to play in as there aren't that many flank routes and pathways for the Spy class to use. >_< But hey that's just my opinion

[Someone Special]

It's perfect. Doesn't need to be changed. Lets leave it at that.

[Kaiuu]

It's perfect. Doesn't need to be changed. Lets leave it at that.

pls explain

[Someone Special]

It's perfect. Doesn't need to be changed. Lets leave it at that.

pls explain

Lok'tar Ogar.

[Balubish]

It's perfect. Doesn't need to be changed. Lets leave it at that.

Couldnt have been said better, that is the true Critsandvich opinion. I agree to 100%

Its a good map on both sides. The first part is just to get the game starting, holding first as red is almost impossible unless you have a really good team. But it doesnt matter, gotta have fun too
The other 2 stages are really hard for both teams and that way make them really similar for both red and blu wich I really like. And my personally opinion its the best CP map in the whole game.
And its not a mirrored CP map wich I hate cause it basicly mean the devs didnt put effort into it like some other maps.

Agreed, its in awesome map and the longest I've played one it was full time on both teams on each section, about 55 minutes It think, all retard caps in the last second. Was really fun and kinda show how well a team work under long pressure. Fast gaming can be easy and fun, but on Dustbowl it really shows who is a good player or team member cause of the strain on the team.

/Balubish

[ilikepotatoes]

i have to go with one of Balubish's points, coordination is needed to get past the millions of vagineer mains defending every choke point on that map.

[that shiny mudkip]

Kaiuu can you post a link to the poll results

[flufffage]

Kaiuu can you post a link to the poll results

yis i need to see how many memes there are :^)

[L0wsound]

Kaiuu can you post a link to the poll results

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1zwvGUf3DNISjwZe2goX4smDxouSKlh8Cm5NDAmtsWF8/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm

How bout that...

[Balubish]

Kaiuu can you post a link to the poll results[/quotehttps://docs.google.com/forms/d/1zwvGUf3DNISjwZe2goX4smDxouSKlh8Cm5NDAmtsWF8/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm

How bout that...

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1zwvGUf3DNISjwZe2goX4smDxouSKlh8Cm5NDAmtsWF8/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm

Wow its 50/50, kinda interesting.

[Kaiuu]

A curious opinion on dustbowl -
Why do you dislike dustbowl? "Kaiuu is a ho"
What do you think should be changed to improve dustbowl? "Kaiuu is still a ho"

rip kaiuu you solid lad

[ilikepotatoes]

can you post the "other" replies???

[that shiny mudkip]

can you post the "other" replies???

also, 12/24 isn't a good thing

[yasha]

I'm apparently late to this, but with regards to the server rotation, I feel strongly that Dustbowl, Egypt, Junction, Hoodoo, and Goldrush are all unsatisfactory maps that should immediately be removed from the server's maplist.

These maps are each ill-suited to accommodate the increase in overall skill level of the tf2 community. While they may have been considered satisfactory maps during the times of their respective releases, the map design philosophies that were implemented into them are at present, antiquated. Currently, good maps, such as those used in the competitive scene, are those that place the determination of the map out come on player skill and teamplay, rather than the above listed maps which reward tactics that are typically indicative of poor player skill. By keeping these maps on the server, it's setting the tone as to what skill level of player the server manager hopes to attract to their community. Critsandwich has to decide if it wants to accommodate its player base by responding to the continual improvement in the general level of skill. Otherwise, higher skilled players will simply move on to different servers. Of course if the second server had a stable population, this would be much less of an issue.

In addendum, Coldfront should be replaced with Warmfront, Barnblitz with Barnblitz pro, and Viaduct with Product.

[Balubish]

I'm apparently late to this, but with regards to the server rotation, I feel strongly that Dustbowl, Egypt, Junction, Hoodoo, and Goldrush are all unsatisfactory maps that should immediately be removed from the server's maplist.

These maps are each ill-suited to accommodate the increase in overall skill level of the tf2 community. While they may have been considered satisfactory maps during the times of their respective releases, the map design philosophies that were implemented into them are at present, antiquated. Currently, good maps, such as those used in the competitive scene, are those that place the determination of the map out come on player skill and teamplay, rather than the above listed maps which reward tactics that are typically indicative of poor player skill. By keeping these maps on the server, it's setting the tone as to what skill level of player the server manager hopes to attract to their community. Critsandwich has to decide if it wants to accommodate its player base by responding to the continual improvement in the general level of skill. Otherwise, higher skilled players will simply move on to different servers. Of course if the second server had a stable population, this would be much less of an issue.

In addendum, Coldfront should be replaced with Warmfront, Barnblitz with Barnblitz pro, and Viaduct with Product.

We have the promaps on Slaybox 2, just look how popular that is. You have no idea how many hours me and my admin fellows and some regulars have spent trying to make it popular with promaps even.
But sure if you wanna play there I will happily join on the promaps, just send me an invite. I know that servers that have custom maps is mostly dead unless you have a huge network base.
If ppl started playing there we have alot of pro maps on their and also voting for No crits that 4 players complain about, but ppl never go there or know about it.
What I remember we have Barnblitz Pro4, and Warmfront on SB2, not sure about Viaduct but probably. So see you in SB2.

Main reason we have stock maps is that it brings in fresh meat. And only stock maps work that way. The only map I dislike alot that you mentioned is Junction, the other ones are fine.
I talked to an old buddy that have come back to CSn that played on only a pro map, custom map server but it is dying aswell. And he have played there for atleast couple of years.
Pro maps are fun couple of times and then ppl keep playing the regular, and alot of new players that looks for servers are not searching for pro maps but servers with ppl in them.
I dub you to Sir Yasha SB2 Popper

/Balubish

[Someone Special]

We have the promaps on Slaybox 2, just look how popular that is. You have no idea how many hours me and my admin fellows and some regulars have spent trying to make it popular with promaps even.
But sure if you wanna play there I will happily join on the promaps, just send me an invite. I know that servers that have custom maps is mostly dead unless you have a huge network base.
If ppl started playing there we have alot of pro maps on their and also voting for No crits that 4 players complain about, but ppl never go there or know about it.
What I remember we have Barnblitz Pro4, and Warmfront on SB2, not sure about Viaduct but probably. So see you in SB2.

Main reason we have stock maps is that it brings in fresh meat. And only stock maps work that way. The only map I dislike alot that you mentioned is Junction, the other ones are fine.
I talked to an old buddy that have come back to CSn that played on only a pro map, custom map server but it is dying aswell. And he have played there for atleast couple of years.
Pro maps are fun couple of times and then ppl keep playing the regular, and alot of new players that looks for servers are not searching for pro maps but servers with ppl in them.
I dub you to Sir Yasha SB2 Popper

/Balubish

[yasha]

We have the promaps on Slaybox 2, just look how popular that is.

This is a red herring argument, so I will not discuss the reasons why SB2 has a non-existent player population. The focus on this thread should be on the current status of SB1's maplist, primarily if dustbowl should remain on it.

...but ppl never go there or know about it.

Sounds more like a marketing problem rather than a server issue.

I talked to an old buddy that have come back to CSn that played on only a pro map, custom map server but it is dying aswell.

I am very certain he is reffering to STAR_'s East Coast server. If this is the case, then its decline in server population over the previous few months has been a function of the general decline in the TF2 playerbase as a whole rather than an issue intrinsic to the server itself. That server does not have an external community to support it aside from star_'s youtube channel. However, it is still fairly well populated during prime time hours.

...alot of new players that looks for servers are not searching for pro maps but servers with ppl in them.

So here lies the crux of the issue. The trade off of replacing stock maps with pro maps is that there may be a decline in the server population. However the opposing position is not advocating for a drastic change in the maplist. Instead, it is petitioning for a small change in the maplist so that the old stock maps are updated to their pro varients. The purpose of the pro varients is not to update the map strictly for use in the competitive scene, but rather to optimize them so that the average user has a more enjoyable experience when playing on them. I don't want to get into the map design specifics as to why warmfront, barnblitz_pro, and product are objectively better, but all they contain subtle changes with the intention of improving the experience of playing on those maps. I realize that I sort of departed from the original topic of dustbowl's inclusion, however I feel that it is important to stress how the overall trend of keeping stock versions when pro varients exist is useful in demonstrating why an continually adapting maplist is necessary to the maintenance of a high quality server.

It would be interesting though, if there is quantitative data on user disconnections during map changes, in order to determine if some maps have a statistically significant difference in disconnection rates than the average.

[Balubish]

1. No its no need to talk about SB2
2. Might be a marketing problem, but dont think so. We use a steam group called Critsandvich Elite with 500 + users and send out pop messages thru that.
Ppl have moved on, stopped playing games, or just TF2 in general. I tested even with slaybox 1 yesterday dead for about 15min then I left aswell.
But if you have some good tips for it how to marketing it sure I guess all of CSn would be happy to take part of it.

3. I dont think I ever have been on a Star_ server. So that is a fat no on ur assumption. Don't care who it is or the servers. I thought you knew I dont care about pro players.
But as you explain it about his servers, the decline is everywhere, not only on his. Game is old dude. And sure I can agree we need fresh meat in the servers, but how?

4. Actually why we dont add pro maps to SB1. Its a decline already. SB2 we have tried for long time to make popular, not even pro/custom maps brings ppl in. The Elite Group is to small to be able to make enough ppl
to come in and help populate it and make the server popular. Many in the group have stopped playing TF2 completly, and to be honest the group was big before I even joined CSn so dont know how they did that.
If we could get maybe 100 or more new players that actually still play the game in that group it would be more effective. Or as Mr. Paladin do, big group of followers that fill the server in about 1 min.
We have non of it.

5. We dont need data to show ppl leaving when pro maps/custom maps come on SB2, I have seen it way to many times.
Even me and my fellow admins and few regulars that do come help populate have seen even after pushing for 3 hours straight to fill the server it have been impossible even when we have played pro maps and custom maps.
And I agree the maps are fun as pro versions, but that is not our problem. The biggest problem I believe is that ppl stopped playing thanks to newer games. We lost a big chunk to Dota 2 wich is beyond me cause i think its a shitty as game and rather play real life chess that are more fun than Dota 2.

But I think you should discuss this matter in general with Fingerman, I know you have run own servers in the past and he probably have statistics and all that you wonder.
All I can answer with are by experience.

[megamoose]

Or as Mr. Paladin do, big group of followers that fill the server for about 1 min. We have none of it.

FTFY BB

[Balubish]

Ops meant "in"

[ilikepotatoes]

dammit kaiuu post the dang optional replies

[flufffage]

dammit kaiuu post the dang optional replies

[that shiny mudkip]

dammit kaiuu post the dang optional replies

[Someone Special]

dammit kaiuu post the dang optional replies

[Doctor Galaxy]

dammit kaiuu post the dang optional replies

[Rumors]

[Kaiuu]

I got quite a few custom replies, but these ones are the most...special.

Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"full of shitters"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"remove it"

Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"kaiuu is a ho"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"kaiuu is still a ho"

Why Do You Like Dustbowl?
"it gives me explosive diarrhea"
Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"skybox too high"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"lower skyboxes"

Why Do You Like Dustbowl?
"i have bad taste in maps"
Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"its perfect"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"make the rounds last 56 hours each"

Why Do You Like Dustbowl?
"( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)"
Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)"


Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"because my internet waifuu hates it"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"body pillows"

Why Do You Like Dustbowl?
"who asks people to do dumb surveys"
Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"who answers these dumb surveys"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"oh wait..."

Why Do You Like Dustbowl?
"i main beggars and i can play to my fullest potential here"
Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"people need to realize that i need at least 5 pocket medics"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"Nothing, its perfect"

Why Do You Like Dustbowl?
"(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻"
Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"(╮°-°)╮┳━┳"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"┻━┻ ︵ ヽ(°□°ヽ) "

The rest of the custom responses were people saying that they didn't hate dustbowl cuz I'm bad at making surveys.

I have a sneaking feeling that most of these responses were from potatoes.

Well, I have cancer now.

[Doctor Galaxy]

Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"because my internet waifuu hates it"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"body pillows"

What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"body pillows"

"body pillows"

Hell, this is your answer right here.

[Rumors]

I got quite a few custom replies, but these ones are the most...special.

Why Do You Dislike Dustbowl?
"because my internet waifuu hates it"
What Do You Think Should Be Changed To Improve Dustbowl?
"body pillows"

Tested, body pillow was credit to team.

[ilikepotatoes]

I have a sneaking feeling that most of these responses were from potatoes.

why is it assumed its me, i wanted to see all the responses


also ROFL rumours hahaha

[Ron Swansons Stache]

I'm apparently late to this, but with regards to the server rotation, I feel strongly that Dustbowl, Egypt, Junction, Hoodoo, and Goldrush are all unsatisfactory maps that should immediately be removed from the server's maplist.

These maps are each ill-suited to accommodate the increase in overall skill level of the tf2 community. While they may have been considered satisfactory maps during the times of their respective releases, the map design philosophies that were implemented into them are at present, antiquated. Currently, good maps, such as those used in the competitive scene, are those that place the determination of the map out come on player skill and teamplay, rather than the above listed maps which reward tactics that are typically indicative of poor player skill. By keeping these maps on the server, it's setting the tone as to what skill level of player the server manager hopes to attract to their community. Critsandwich has to decide if it wants to accommodate its player base by responding to the continual improvement in the general level of skill. Otherwise, higher skilled players will simply move on to different servers. Of course if the second server had a stable population, this would be much less of an issue.

In addendum, Coldfront should be replaced with Warmfront, Barnblitz with Barnblitz pro, and Viaduct with Product.

I agree with most everything in this post but also realize the difficulties (see: impossibilities) of smoothly executing.