<Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

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<Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Failhorse » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:20 pm

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So what do you think?

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So the big update that Valve promised us at the beginning of the year will probably start to roll out over the next few weeks. With what is expected to be plenty of map changes all around, I don't picture Valve giving us more than 3-4 updated maps at a time. Plus we're getting 2 new maps cp_standin and cp_somethingotherclusterfuck.

I'm going to spend some time on the new maps. I'm not really interest, nor freaked out about the weapon updates. Hey it's not hats right? Any player changes or changes in dynamics are a welcome change. Doing the same thing week after week gets boring. Which is pretty much why I've avoided TF2 the last few months. Just bored.

Anyway. New maps. Let me preface. The overall update is Valve's way of saying sorry they unbalanced the game. Because no one likes getting spawncamped because we added this weapon. Or with X weapon you can do Y unexpectedly. Not looking to start a philosophical debate on said things. But they do ruin gameplay for some players and overall can just stall the 'fun.'

But Valve goes and picks 2 maps that do the exact opposite of what they are preaching.
First take a look at Standin.
Map features:
* old school gravepit look
* 3 open cap points
* future place in the dustbin with Hydro.
[youtube=iU_NGDq_FrI][/youtube]

Why so bad? My first thought if comp TF2 rejected it, it should be great for the rest of us. Well it's not. You have 3 open control points. To win, a team must control them all... And they cap slowly like Gravelpit. So for team death match players (who favor doomsday and hightower) FUCKING GREAT MAP. But overall even they'll get sick of them. Why? The map is pretty open. Congrats on dying from behind a lot. (Wait didn't Valve say this balance thing was to try and correct that?) Spawn camping? Yep.

Well OK maybe Process is better.
[youtube=AAXRcdYS4n8][/youtube]

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf7ThIblj0sWGgXTGzvqg_WihfEtykvWfUfw0a5xAFpz5gpCj66lNRdbJM[/img]

The video starts with spawncamping! That should end the conversation right there. Granted the video stars a semi-pro comp player. But we have our fair share of those. You know that guy that only ever plays 1 class and is really good at it? But 1 semi-good player shut down a team. Game play aside. Sorry, broken game play aside. What is so special about either map? Standin is different. But there's a reason why no one wants a multi-cap open map. A few engineers can stall a cap and the game. Luckily there's a time limit. ( Thanks Pipeline.) I think the visual work of the maps is a step backward. It's nice to go back to 2010. But far better maps have been created visually. This back to basics junk may be a thinly veiled attempt to get map sizes down. But that's unimportant with steam pipe. On cp_process. Yes, it's not a flat 5cp indoor/outdoor map. But Gullywash cornered the market on that last year. And Gullywash was a gimme to the Pro guys. Look at it's popularity. Somewhere above Yukon and below Koth_King.

So what did Ian Cuslidge deserve to get 2 maps shipped? I'm not knocking the map maker himself. The maps are polished. They look great. Hell, they shipped Hoodoo with the phantom cart moving on it's own glitch. But did no one else deserve?  If you don't get what I'm talking about. Stop looking at gamebanana and head over to http://tf2maps.net. Plenty of polish there.

And finally a vote. Do you think they'll make any changes to CTF_Turbine[b] <removed>[/b]
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by GoDM1N » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:26 pm

The new weapon changes I don't necessarily have a problem with. I'll have to try them myself when they come out. However as someone who doesn't worry about how effective a weapon is over how fun they are to use I'm really hoping they don't touch some of the lesser weapons too much or remove the fun bits of the weapon all together.

As for the Turbine question, I think it would be foolish for them to change to the "pro" version. Competitive based servers don't do well. Most no-crit servers are dead 90% of the time, and we've seen this for our selves within CSn when SB2 use to be no crit and with the MGE server. The reason for this, as you've shown, is the type of gameplay comp play demands. It isn't fun, its competitive, and while it is enjoyable to dominate everyone on the server, everyone else in the server isn't enjoying it. Spawn camping is very effective which is why comp players do it so much. However there is no fun in coming out of spawn after a 30sec wait, only to open the door to be killed by a camping demo. Having a competitive focus like that simply won't keep the average player around long, and it shows when regulars switch servers when "that guy" joins. We've all seen that happen at least once, and might have done it ourselves or at least have heard of people making comments along those lines.
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Failhorse » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:03 pm

Godmin turbine 'pro' has nothing to do with comp tf2. It's just a revamp of turbine that fixes some of Turbines problems.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=16020
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What we have changed, would you ask?
1. Added 1 new way from center to lobby.
2. Modified exit from pipe
3. Pipe is now wider and higher.
4. Modified ceiling in the intelligence room.
5. Modified stairs the center.
6. Added small ammo packages in center.
7. Near the respawn room there are small ammo and health packages.
8. Modified the window in lobby.
9. Modified map lighting.
10. Now you can walk around the generator under the ladder in the center.

What we have fixed?
1. Now you will not touch the lamps in pipe and will not slow down when you walk in pipe and lean on one side of it.
2. The turbine sound is now more quiet.
3. The gas balloon in the passage to blue lobby is now a material (so no sneaky traps now demomans, mhahahahahha).
4. Removed the flattening in angles (near health pack) in lobbys.
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by GoDM1N » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 pm

Failhorse wrote:Godmin turbine 'pro' has nothing to do with comp tf2. It's just a revamp of turbine that fixes some of Turbines problems.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=16020
Code: Select all
What we have changed, would you ask?
1. Added 1 new way from center to lobby.
2. Modified exit from pipe
3. Pipe is now wider and higher.
4. Modified ceiling in the intelligence room.
5. Modified stairs the center.
6. Added small ammo packages in center.
7. Near the respawn room there are small ammo and health packages.
8. Modified the window in lobby.
9. Modified map lighting.
10. Now you can walk around the generator under the ladder in the center.

What we have fixed?
1. Now you will not touch the lamps in pipe and will not slow down when you walk in pipe and lean on one side of it.
2. The turbine sound is now more quiet.
3. The gas balloon in the passage to blue lobby is now a material (so no sneaky traps now demomans, mhahahahahha).
4. Removed the flattening in angles (near health pack) in lobbys.


Wasn't it made for comp matches though?
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by CR33D » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:05 pm

I'd like turbine__pro to be added. It flows much smoother imo.
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I also spend way to much time on the forum.


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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Cash » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:25 pm

If anything, turbine pro helps prevent people from spawn camping. The alternate path from mid to the flag keeps players from taking the path that goes to spawn. I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented, but I have my doubts that Valve would suddenly change a map to that extreme. I'll keep my fingers crossed in the mean time.
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by fingerman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:09 pm

They need to just add a cart to turbine
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Thomas The Train » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:56 pm

fingerman wrote:They need to just add a cart to turbine



bam problem solved
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by CR33D » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:58 pm

fingerman wrote:They need to just add a cart to turbine


ctf_pl_turbine_a1?
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by check six » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:08 pm

ok holy shit first of all that player in the video is terrible if the people he were playing against were any good they wouldn't have let him get free-ass reign over the map

second of all do you genuinely think process is a bad map if you do i seriously question your sanity as a human being if you're basing it off this one video without having played it yourself in a pub environment (HINT IT'S FUCKING INCREDIBLE ANYWHERE)

no joke the dudes he was playing against were TRASSSSH

also ctf is inherently a horrid gamemode that all i do is to go onto those maps to play with friends and dm the shit out of stuff, it's slow and clusterfucky and made like solely for the point of turtling

might as well change it to turbine_pro, it's way less shitty
any questions? #meatshot
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Thomas The Train » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:46 pm

New blog post... new hats... yay?

So far in this update:
☑ New Official Maps
☑ Weapon Balancing
☑ HATS
☐ New weapons

Edit: so theres gonna be a new flamethrower. ;~;

Edit 2: "Thanks to this verification system, we've been able to select a whopping 64 Gold Star items for this coming update.
I wonder how many will be weapons."

How many are gonna be weps? fucking too many hats tbh.
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by stanley » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:54 am

That video started outside by the second point, and there I didn't see any spawn camping...

Seriously though, process is one of the best comp maps in the game right now, and I would put it up there with granary and badlands. I don't think anything will change just because it's a pub. Granary and Badlands are decent pub maps, and process should be too. After reading what you wrote about it I question whether or not you have even played it.

Standin is pretty shitty tho
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Balubish » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:28 am

fingerman wrote:They need to just add a cart to turbine


Couldn't agree more :D
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Failhorse » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:47 am

Godmin 'pro' was nothing more than what the guy added to the end of the map name. I know they tried using it in comp play. Much like everything else, it changed too much, so they rejected it.

check six wrote:ok holy shit first of all that player in the video is terrible if the people he were playing against were any good they wouldn't have let him get free-ass reign over the map

second of all do you genuinely think process is a bad map if you do i seriously question your sanity as a human being if you're basing it off this one video without having played it yourself in a pub environment (HINT IT'S FUCKING INCREDIBLE ANYWHERE)

no joke the dudes he was playing against were TRASSSSH

also ctf is inherently a horrid gamemode that all i do is to go onto those maps to play with friends and dm the shit out of stuff, it's slow and clusterfucky and made like solely for the point of turtling

might as well change it to turbine_pro, it's way less shitty


Assuming i've never played it is kinda stupid. I've been involved in the custom maps community about as long as I've been playing TF2. For the article I just selected the first non-comp video I could find on youtube. If anything Standin is very good at allowing upper tier players easily flank in 'pubs.' By pubs, you know, 90% of TF2 itself. More to the point. In the same breath you tell me that CTF devolves into a DM. Just like Doomsday, which has 1 control point. Now you have a map with 3 and the same cap time.



On process.. Of all the custom 5cp maps introduced over the last 2 years. There are others far more deserving. The failings are easily explained by what Stanley said. The comp players love it. The map follows the same generic dynamic as foundry and gullywash. From a 5CP standpoint the only thing I've enjoyed since Freight has been cp_waste. It's different. Therefor rejected by the 'pros.' Other than waste the only CP map that I've enjoyed has been cp_furnace. A better take on gravelpit, but it'd be handing another official map to Tim Johnson. But hey, Process is pretty, and the chokepoints, hallways, and open spaces are slightly different.

In terms of innovative maps more deserving. PLR_panic get's no respect for the changes in map play. It fixes the stupid inherent in PLR. And TC_meridian is a proper take on the TC style. (Granted a huge fucking map file.) I get that we don't need more PL right now. Well, we can always use more payload. As a concerned community member I'll take a server filling payload map over another generic CP map any day.
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Re: Wait TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by GoDM1N » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:26 pm

Oh god meridian. That map is amazing.
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Re: <Post> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Failhorse » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:24 am

Post update --

My only gripe on items. Why remove HS immunity on piss gun? Here's the counter for sniper v sniper

Reg sniper - Piss gun - Machina -

A full charged body shot could kill a piss gun sniper. Just screams of 'pro' rage. It is sad day.
Calling card doesn't cut it.

On the new maps.

Watching the 'pub,' by pub I mean the 99%. Yah they still suck.

Good 'aye.
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Re: <Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Maringue » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:09 pm

I agree. Just looked at a lot of these changes and they do scream "pro-rage". The others are the classic case of Valve buffing weapons because no one uses them ever because they suck which usually ends up in the item having a 50% chance of being horribly overpowered.

From the desk of ABOUT GOD DAMN TIME VALVE:
Gunslinger
Fixed a bug that caused mini-sentries to heal while being constructed

Wrangler
Slightly reduced accuracy of manually-controlled sentry at long range
Protective shield now fades 1 second after the owning Engineer dies

Dead Ringer
When under the effect of Feign Death, damage taken decreases the duration of the effect <--- This alone makes me love this update.

I personally like the fact that they removed the set bonuses that were based on hats. I've never been comfortable with hats granting you increased play abilities.
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Re: <Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Arron Dominion » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:16 pm

cp_process is a good 5-cp map, with good balance. I was surprised to see how well standin played, since it was pretty terrible for highlander last summer season in UGC.
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Re: <Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by stanley » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:12 pm

I pubbed process yesterday, I thought it played pretty welll...
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Re: <Post> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by GoDM1N » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:43 pm

Failhorse wrote:Post update --

My only gripe on items. Why remove HS immunity on piss gun? Here's the counter for sniper v sniper

Reg sniper - Piss gun - Machina -

A full charged body shot could kill a piss gun sniper. Just screams of 'pro' rage. It is sad day.
Calling card doesn't cut it.

On the new maps.

Watching the 'pub,' by pub I mean the 99%. Yah they still suck.

Good 'aye.

While on the topic of pro-rage. They also removed eyefinity support awhile back. If you try using eyefinity now with TF2 the FoV is too low and everything looks like its right in front of you which makes the game completely unplayable for people using it.I'm actually wondering if they're going to remove support for the rift as well.
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Re: <Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Maringue » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:58 am

Arron Dominion wrote:cp_process is a good 5-cp map, with good balance. I was surprised to see how well standin played, since it was pretty terrible for highlander last summer season in UGC.

I played standin and it wasn't that bad. I think once people get used to it a little it will be fun. It does feel like a very large map for 24 people though.

Oh, and I totally forgot about my outrage that they removed the Medieval Medic bonus for using the crossbow and the amputator. I see why they removed the set bonuses for everything that needed a hat, they didn't want the owning of a hat to grant you actual in game benefits, I agree with Valve on that part. But it was the only set bonus that didn't require a hat, so why kill it? You got the +1 regen bonus because the crossbow leaves you pretty defenseless at close range (for all those people who were thinking it was a straight upgrade from stock).

Oh well, I'll just have to bitch at pyros now to put me out, that extra +1 regen made it really, really hard to die from afterburn.
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Re: <Updated> TF2 update... uhm commentary.

by Beartato » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Maringue wrote:Dead Ringer
When under the effect of Feign Death, damage taken decreases the duration of the effect <--- This alone makes me love this update.

Agreed. It's ridiculous they didn't do it sooner. Only downside is that a DR spy is no longer a sure way to fully charge the phlog. But that's not important at all.
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