Community support: Computer building mega thread

Talk about random stuff that has nothing to do with TF2 or other games.

Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby Balubish » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:46 pm

GoDM1N wrote:So I'm going to start tweaking my system as well, mainly because I'm bored and I've aways wanted to demonstrate OCing and how you do or do not benefit.
CPU/GPU OC
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Looking forward to see more info, I have found that for benchmarking you can OC the GPU more but real life games like BF4 crashes with the same OC. Hope you got an answer on that Godm1n. Help :!:

And my OC that I found stable is GPU Clock 1188Mhz and mem 6192Mhz. I guess I can tweak a little but thats a stable clock for gaming that I have now though. And +25mV and 106% power
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby GoDM1N » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:39 pm

Some more goods, this time BioShock Infinite


Stock
Avg: 80.309

CPU only OC
Avg: 84.370

GPU only OC
Avg: 87.795

CPU/GPU OC
Avg: 93.635

Next in line is GTA4 and ARMA 3. Possibly Skyrim as well.
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby UncleTestes » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:45 pm

Can you guys tell me some more about overclocking? I've always been curious but never really looked into it.

Here's what I understand so far: CPUs have a rating in Hertz. Typical CPU rating is about 2 point something, sometimes 3. I don't actually know if GPUs are measured in Hertz or not but anyway. Overclocking can boost your Hertz rating. It can be controlled with software or firmware (some UEFI-compatible motherboards can control CPU overclocking from the BIOS menu) and usually can get you anywhere from an extra 100 MHz to 1 GHz. I also know that with overclocking comes a need for more cooling, and can also degrade the components faster.

What'd I miss? Thanks in advance.
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby DerKrieger105 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:20 pm

UncleTestes wrote:Can you guys tell me some more about overclocking? I've always been curious but never really looked into it.

Here's what I understand so far: CPUs have a rating in Hertz. Typical CPU rating is about 2 point something, sometimes 3. I don't actually know if GPUs are measured in Hertz or not but anyway. Overclocking can boost your Hertz rating. It can be controlled with software or firmware (some UEFI-compatible motherboards can control CPU overclocking from the BIOS menu) and usually can get you anywhere from an extra 100 MHz to 1 GHz. I also know that with overclocking comes a need for more cooling, and can also degrade the components faster.

What'd I miss? Thanks in advance.


WALL OF TEXT INBOUND. TRYING TO BE AS THOROUGH AS I POSSIBLY CAN. THAT BEING SAID I GLOSSED OVER A FEW POINTS AND MAY HAVE LEFT SOMETHINGS OUT. OVERCLOCKING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS AND CAN CAUSE SEVERE SYSTEM DAMAGE IF DONE IMPROPERLY. IT ISN'T FOR NOOBIES OR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. READ. RESEARCH. ASK QUESTIONS BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO OVERCLOCK.

CPUs, GPUs, RAM, and even other components on the motherboard as well as interconnects like bus and hyper transports run at a specified clock speed generated by a clock generator. That speed is measured in Hz. Now a days, because components are so fast, you'll see ratings in MHz and GHz (Mega and Giga Hz. 3.5GHz= 3500 MHz) This speed is a rating of how fast a component runs and is not necessarily an indicator of how fast the component is overall or how powerful it is. That is the Megahertz Myth. Just because one CPU is rated at 3.5Ghz and one at 3.0Ghz doesn't automatically make the faster one better for a specific task.

Performance depends on a variety of factors. In CPUs/GPUs for example, performance comes down to clock speed, IPC (instructions per clock or how much work the CPU can do per tick of the cycle), architecture, # of cores and a variety of other factors. Clock speed is important though and increasing it can improve performance significantly in some tasks.

Overclocking is a great way to boost performance without buying new hardware. That being said it will make your components consume more power, produce more heat and can cause instability. If you run excessively high voltages and let your components overheat you will shorten their lifespan. However, if you keep those factors under control lifespans aren't significantly effected. Certain parts and architectures don't overclock well however even with good cooling. Overclock ability really comes down to "the silicon lottery" and getting a good part that OCs well. Some architectures like AMD's Vishera parts overclock better than other architectures like Intel's Haswell and will have more parts that win the silicon lottery. Really though it comes down to your individual part.

Let's talk about GPU overclocking first as it is easier to do. GPU OCing is quite simple and for most people is done at a software level. Many programs are available to do this and can be downloaded for free. Many are produced by the individual GPU vendor themselves (EVGA Precision X, ASUS GPUTweak, MSI Afterburner, ect.) but AMD also has their own software known as Catalyst Control. It is important to note that the vendor applications like MSI Afterburner will work with any GPU from any vendor. It doesn't matter.

GPU overclocking is down to moving a few sliders in the above mentioned applications. You can simply raise GPU and memory clock speeds, as both exist on a GPU and are controllable, and achieve an overclock. That doesn't mean you can just put the slider as high as it goes and expect the card to run that high. You need to keep heat under control and as you raise the clock speed the part will require more power You can increase this in these programs as well but you want to do it carefully. You want to use as little voltage as you can to get stability at a given speed. Eventually you will hit a wall with any part. Either it gets too hot or it just simply won't go any faster and be stable.

GPU OCing requires good cooling and non reference cards with special coolers, like Asus's DIRECTCUII unit or XFX's Double Dissipation cooler, will give you lower temperatures and more overclocking head room. They also usually have better power delivery systems which are needed for OCing.

Let's talk about memory OCing next. This one is dubious. Unless you're running an APU for gaming RAM speeds really don't matter. Run it at the speed that it is rated for. Some motherboards and CPUs will only allow you to use higher speed RAM if they themselves are overclocked. If you are using Intel no matter what speed RAM you buy it will run at 1333Mhz when you put it in. You'll need to go into the BIOS and load up the RAM's XMP (Extreme Memory Profile) profile to get it to run at its rated speed with the proper timings. Messing with the speed and timings other than setting the XMP profile isn't recommended.

CPU Overclocking is probably the most interesting and difficult and can take the longest. CPU speed is calculated by taking a fixed BCLK (Base Clock) speed and multiplying it by a number known as the multiplier. This gives you your final rated speed. For example this particular system I'm on has a BCLK of 200 Mhz and a multiplier of 14 giving me a final speed of 2800Mhz or 2.8Ghz. The multiplier will change automatically depending on CPU utilization as modern CPUs don't run at their full speed all the time to save power.
Overclocking CPUs is generally done by changing the multiplier and raising the upper limit. You can overclock by changing the BCLK or Bus speed but that usually isn't recommended as it changes speeds for other components and induces instability.

To begin overclocking you are going to need to figure out a few things. Firstly is can your CPU be overclocked at all. Intel's overclock-able parts are denoted by a "k" suffix at the end. This means they are "Unlocked." The multiplier can be changed. For example the Intel i5-4670k can be overclocked but the Intel-4670 can't. The only exception to this, I believe, is the new Pentium G3258 which has an unlocked multiplier and can be overclocked.
AMD is a bit tricky. All AMD FX series CPUs (FX-6300, 8350, 8320. 4300 ect..) have an unlocked multiplier and can be overclocked. AMD also labels such unlocked CPUs as "Black Edition" (Phenom II X4 965 BE) but also sometimes includes a k suffix like Intel does such as with the Athlon X4 760k.

Next you need to look at your motherboard. It needs to be a high quality design with a good power phase design. Usually 4+2 or better is recommended. This doesn't mean that more phases are necessarily better but more is important. Furthermore these voltage regulation components, VRMS and the like should have adequate cooling. Usually a heat sink over them is important. On Intel you're going to want a highly rated Z or X Chip set board (Z77, 87,97 or X79,99 on the Socket 2011 and 2011-3 based boards). AMD you want a good AMD 970 board as a minimum for the six core CPUs and below and a good 990FX board for 8 core CPUs as they draw more power.

Thirdly is cooling. Overclocking your CPU makes it produce more heat. A stock cooler that comes with your CPU isn't good enough. A CM Hyper 212 Evo is okay for moderate overclocks (Say 200-300Mhz OCs) but better cooling say a Noctua NHU-14S is rated for more extreme overclocks. You can also look at watercolor in terms of all in one solutions or custom loops. Single radiator 120 and 140mm AIO water cooling units are usually more expensive and perform about the same as good high end air cooling units from say Noctua or Phanteks. 240MM and 280mm solutions like the Corsair H100i and NZXT Kraken X60 (I own a Kraken) will do even better but are more expensive. Proper case ventilation is important as well. Your motherboard will get hot and that heat needs to go somewhere too. Lower temperatures will allow you to overclock higher, keep your components running longer and will make sure you don't damage them.
Look at your specific part to see what its tJunction or max temperature is. I believe for Intel Haswell parts it is around 105C. At that point the CPU will turn off to save itself. However as temps get closer to that limit the CPU will start to throttle and run slower. You usually want to stay under 80ish degrees on Intel Haswell parts and under 60C on AMD FX parts.

CPU overclocking is done in the BIOS/UEFI. Their are Windows utilities, like Asus 4/5 Way Optimization, that will do it for you in Windows but these make changes to the BIOS/UEFI so you are really doing the same thing.

First thing you do is go in and disable any power saving features, like AMD Quiet'n'Cool for example.
Then you will begin to raise your multiplier to whatever number you want that will correspond to the desired final clock speed.
You will then stress test the CPU. (Run it at 100% for an extended period of time under a heavy workload). This will tell you if the overclock is stable. If it is stable it won't crash but if it isn't it will.
DO NOT USE PRIME 95. I don't care what people say. With modern CPUs it is a horrible benchmark. It causes Intel CPUs to immediately start throttling and won't give you a real view of how stable the OC is. On both AMD and Intel it can even cause the CPU to draw more voltage than you specified and cause damage. AIDA64 is a better option. Ask around I'm sure you can find some other solutions. Monitor your temps at all times during this process to be sure the CPU doesn't get too hot.

After the stress test completes (the longer you stress it for the more sure you can be of its stability. This can sometimes go on for hours or days depending how crazy you are.) You'll end up with two results.
A) There is no throttling or crash and your OC is stable.
or
B) The system crashes and you have an unstable overclock.

When B happens you go back into the BIOS/UEFI. At that point you begin to raise your CPU voltage or VCore. Usually expressed as a number say 1.200V. You want to raise it ever so slowly. I'm talking from 1.200 to say 1.205V. You want to try and achieve the lowest possible voltage you need for stability.
Then you stress test again.
You keep doing this until:
A) The system doesn't crash. Stable OC. Begin to lower the voltage until you get a crash again. Dial the voltage in somewhere in between there. Lower is better so long as it is stable.
B) Crash. Unstable OC. You go back and raise the voltage again. You keep doing this until it is stable.

There is also a third possibility. You reach a temperature that is too high or you have reached the voltage limit (you can't add any more power). At that point the multiplier you selected is too high. Lower your multiplier and final clock speed. Then do all the steps again.
Some chips can hit higher speeds with less voltage, some need more. No two parts overclock the same.
Look at guides that are specific to your CPU and other hardware. They are good guides and can tell you where to start. Remember though, these are GUIDES. Your CPU may be different.

Some programs you may wanna check out:
HWMonitor- Gives you good system and temperature information.
CPU-Z- CPU and RAM information
GPU-Z- GPU information, temperature readouts and clock speeds.
EVGA Precision X and MSI Afterburner- My favorite GPU overclocking programs.
AIDA64- Benchmarks and stress tests.
ASUS RealBench- Stress test that simulates realistic workloads.

I tried to be as thorough as possible. Please excuse the length. Overclocking isn't for noobies and can cause damage to your hardware if you don't know what you are doing. I'll be glad to assist you. The internet is your friend and you can find good info about overclocking your system.
Please post your specific configuration (Case, MOBO, CPU, CPU Cooler, GPU, RAM, PSU, HDD/SDD) Everything. It will make helping you or giving you a good starting place easier.
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby Balubish » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:28 am

A very nice review and very detailed German.
Side note too this awesome and detailed review I did use for example Asus EVO Turbo software from Asus Suite. Without that it would be much harder to do. It have in general two OC values. Fast and Extreme. Fast is basicly just changing it a few 100MHz by default settings. Extreme by the other hand is different.
First EVO is restarting the PC and wait 1 minute before first starting the Auto OC. First up is the multiplier. And first it raise the multiplier one step, from say on mine 35 to 36. The the software benchmark it and see if it is stable for about 15seconds. Then 37-38-39 until the program crash it will do this. Thats when u have come to the maximum safe temps and voltage. It's fine That its crashing, its a safety built in thats why it crashes and turn the parts off instead of breaking them. After restarting the software still wait another minute before continue the OC. This time its time to OC the Base Clock. Mostly it doesnt go that far atleast not on my Intel. So 35x100MHz is 3.5GHz stock speed on mine. Without this software it would be alot harder for me to OC. But think most new Motherboards with UEFI Bios have similar software.

And 1st rule that kreiger said. Have a stock cooler, dont even think about OC with that.
I can show you how my Extreme OC looks like in a system as an example.
Keep in mind these settings cant be used by everybody, it really depends on what parts and software versions you have and it is an extreme OC.
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FSB/ Base Clock as you can see is at 101.4MHz and x48 times gives me 4.865GHz. 40% faster CPU than stock.
Tip: If you gonna build your own pc, lookup the parts ur planning to buy and look at reviews etc. The mainboard and CPU I looked alot at YouTube clips to see how proffesionals explained all the stuff you might need to know. Asus have a really smart guy explaining every step on thier software for how to OC etc with their stuff. Look for stuff like that.

And I do agree with Kreiger on Prime 95. Personally I like to test if the CPU OC with Cinebench, its a free test program that bench the CPU rendering a picture. So for example if you use a auto OC it most likely will set very high voltage on it. With Cinebench you can lower the voltage a bit and then run the CPU benchmark until the program crashes, then you have to go back to the voltage you had before. Same way if you OC manually. Go small steps. And never OC with stock coolers. They are crap both AMD and Intel, they know this but they send them with the CPU's just so that ppl get a cooler in general. Not everybody buy custom coolers or OC.
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby UncleTestes » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:48 pm

Mother of Jebus, I didn't expect that much. Nevertheless, endless thanks for the time and effort you put into your response and I will definitely come back to it as a starting point for OCing if I choose to do it in the future. I learned a lot. Didn't know you could overclock RAM.
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby Balubish » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:16 pm

EVGA GTX 780 Hydro Copper Performance Max Graphics settings at 1920x1080p with FPS counter.

Bioshock Infinite



Crysis 3

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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby StarYoshi » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:10 pm

Please feel free to ask me any PC hardware questions anytime - I've built and worked on computers for over a decade. (I'm also the GPU editor for overclock.net :P)
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby Balubish » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:13 pm

StarYoshi wrote:Please feel free to ask me any PC hardware questions anytime - I've built and worked on computers for over a decade. (I'm also the GPU editor for overclock.net :P)


To late, had to learn all the hard way ;)
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Re: Community support: Computer building mega thread

Postby StarYoshi » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:26 pm

Balubish wrote:
StarYoshi wrote:Please feel free to ask me any PC hardware questions anytime - I've built and worked on computers for over a decade. (I'm also the GPU editor for overclock.net :P)


To late, had to learn all the hard way ;)


Sometimes that's the best way :D
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