Look at you tiny-itty-bitty men running from sandvich!

by **Harri** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:44 pm

What am I about to read?
Lately, issues surrounding sexism and sexual harassment have appeared in the forms and servers of the Critsandvich community. These issues mostly surround male community members harassing female community members. With this said, I will be writing this post from that standpoint. This post is not an accusation!

What is sexism and sexual harassment?
Sexism is defined as the “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex” (OED).

Sexual Harassment is defined as “harassment (typically of a woman by a man) in a workplace or other professional or social situation, involving the making of unwanted sexual advances, obscene remarks, etc.” (OED).

The real issue here?
Anything under the umbrella of sexism or sexual harassment is offensive to female community members. Like any member of Critsandvich, the women of this community want to play games and talk to like-minded people.

Simply, women of the Critsandvich community are not here to:

Build a better community! Let’s treat each other like good friends.

Keep in mind, this is already a rule for Critsandvich! If you are caught acting like a fool you will be punished.
(Disclaimer: I'm not an admin.)

by **Drawed** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:49 pm

I agree with what you are saying, but do you have examples of what you are talking about? Like specific people doing it in game?

by **Harri** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:59 pm

Drawed wrote:I agree with what you are saying, but do you have examples of what you are talking about? Like specific people doing it in game?

Calling out specific people would be more aggressive than this topic requires.

by **Drawed** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:02 pm

Harri wrote:
Drawed wrote:I agree with what you are saying, but do you have examples of what you are talking about? Like specific people doing it in game?

Calling out specific people would be more aggressive than this topic requires.

Well we can't really fix anything without knowing who needs to change. And was this sexism directed at you, or somebody else? If it is the latter, did they personally complain, or did the occurrence just simply not sit right with you personally?

Website · by **Nikki Wolf** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:11 pm

Harri wrote:
Drawed wrote:I agree with what you are saying, but do you have examples of what you are talking about? Like specific people doing it in game?

Calling out specific people would be more aggressive than this topic requires.

If any problems occur on the server, in terms of harassment, you can share who is causing the harassment with an admin.

by **Harri** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:14 pm

Nikki Wolf wrote:
Harri wrote:
Drawed wrote:I agree with what you are saying, but do you have examples of what you are talking about? Like specific people doing it in game?

Calling out specific people would be more aggressive than this topic requires.

If any problems occur on the server, in terms of harassment, you can share who is causing the harassment with an admin.

Of course, I would happily seek out an admin when needed. However, this is more of a friendly reminder to the community that this is still an issue and some awareness goes a long way.

by **Drawed** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:15 pm

Nikki Wolf wrote:
Harri wrote:
Drawed wrote:I agree with what you are saying, but do you have examples of what you are talking about? Like specific people doing it in game?

Calling out specific people would be more aggressive than this topic requires.

If any problems occur on the server, in terms of harassment, you can share who is causing the harassment with an admin.

But first, bring it up with the person you are feeling harassed by. That seems to be a big issue here. Everyone is so eager to get their feelings hurt that they don't let the offending party apologize, or even let the offending party know somebody has an issue with what they are doing.

by **Rologton** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:31 pm

This is the kind of thing that if you see and are having a genuine problem with, you need to call in an Admin. There is nothing we can do outside of all of the ways we already advertise the rules in-game and on the forums when an Admin isn't there. We already entrust our regulars and expect our donators to enforce the rules the best way they can.

If somebody is harassing you or making you uncomfortable, and an Admin is not in the server, it is up to you to call them out, let them know it's against our communities rules, and if they continue to misbehave, call in an Admin. I'm going to be honest, I can't remember the last time I've seen anything like that happen here on the forums, and most if not all of the people that would be seeing this topic aren't the kind of people that would be going off harassing or discriminating in the first place because those aren't the people we attract. In my experience as an Admin and before that as a regular, it has always been the dick swinging, internet tough-guy rando that shows up in the servers that exhibit this kind of behavior. Unfortunately, those aren't the people that will be seeing this in the forums.

by **SovietPanda** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:32 pm

it would help to point out some specific incidents

by **Knees of Justice** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:28 pm

Um. I have not noticed any sexual harrassment or sexism within this community as of late, at least from the regulars.

Sounds to me like you're reaching towards a much more global issue. New players connect to our servers every day and there's no way of knowing the crazy shit -- sexist or not -- that they might do. As you said, we already have a rule about this and I believe that will suffice.

...Heh. Just a side note, but I love how those definitions create a stigma against men.

by **Drawed** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:38 am

Please don't. This is what bothers me about this community sometimes. There are obvious issues among the regulars and admins, yet nobody wants to actually deal with it. It always just derails into a meme cesspool. Everyone get's their feelings hurt and then a big group of people leave and the cycle repeats itself every fucking year. I don't think this can any longer be blamed on "It's summer". The same shit doesn't happen each year for three years in a row because of a change in the weather. There is a fundamental flaw with the way that we handle things around here. Myself included. Now I know this was originally a thread about sexism and the like, but this is as good a time as ever to deal with this shit.

by **Guy** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:35 am

Don't get me started.

Girls like to throw the vagina around and call themselves victims a lot.

I don't see things like THATZ ZO DAMN WOMANNY, YOU ARE SO GIRLLY, THAT IS SO GIRLLY.

No you see: that is so damn gay, You are so gay, That is so gay, you're a *******, go suck a dick *******.
I don't see you being a woman much of a real reason to be insulted.
If a guy is insisting that you prove your gender, may be a desperate person in real life.

I had a guy in WoW think I was a girl in real life, because I played a damn female Blood Elven Holy Priest and used a lot of emotcons.
He followed me over 3 servers. and 2 faction changes. I finally got on vent and said I was a man, and he thought I was using autotune to change my voice. I never once told him I was a girl, and always told him I was a guy... awaywho...

As soon as they find out you are a damn girl in a video game they throw stuff at you... they don't even have to see you.
They worship the ground you walk on, just for the hope to talk to you.

I played several games and above is the case, and in TF2 guys generally think girls can play the game well... and don't take much pitty on you or throw items at you.

I, for one, love vulgar references to penises and testicles... but I have a sense of humor.

by **Preminicious** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:51 am

The problem with making a forum post about this is that you lack concrete evidence that any harassment has taken place. I'm not saying it's being doubted, but it's all banter until something is brought to the table that isn't blind accusation.

Harri wrote:Lately, issues surrounding sexism and sexual harassment have appeared in the forms

For example, this can be used as evidence if it is provided.

Harri wrote:Calling out specific people would be more aggressive than this topic requires.

Unfortunately friendly reminders aren't going to help with newcomers, and sometimes people have to get called out on their shit before they realize they're being idiots.

Basically, the Internet is a faceless place where angsty kids go to vent their sexual frustrations and overall just be complete asshats. You can push it down so it's not so in the open with a strict enforcement of the rules by admins, but that only works when there's admins around, which recently I have seen less of. It's just like Drawed said, everybody is just waiting to get their feelings hurt so they have a reason to bitch and moan about it later when it can be handled right then and there with just talking to the accused party or getting an admin if it's spiraling out of control.

Obviously there's going to be two sides to this argument, as well. I can't say I haven't seen a girl come in a server and demand stuff and attention because she's a woman. The pandering to women also becomes a little excessive at times when it occurs. People get mad and throw around derogatory terms when you go from a medic-less team with no girl to 2-3 medics exclusively pocketing a girl who's gone Heavy because they want her attention. pls respond There are reasons why assholes are assholes.

All that said, I haven't noticed anything like sexual harassment going on. You could always record a demo to submit as evidence if it occurs again. Regardless, this is an issue that needs to be addressed with a community like ours.

Website · by **GoDM1N** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:13 am

This section in the forum is dedicated to more serious topics. Anyone may post but you must follow the rules.
Rules:
Respect fellow posters
No personal attacks
You are entitled to your own opinions
But you are not entitled to your own facts
If topic is permissible, cite real sources
STAY ON TOPIC

If you do not follow the rules you will be banned for this part of the forum.

The thread is about the sexism side of bigotry, not to start a public fight between specific people.

by **Repoman** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:45 am

Treat everyone with respect.

You make more friends that way.

And friends can be used as minions.

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:57 pm

Once again, I would like to reiterate that this post is not an accusation. If I were speaking on any one incident I would immediately report it to an admin. I am not passive-aggressive. I did not post this as a jab at any specific person! With that said, I changed the forum title to better suit the nature of this post.

Critsandvich is not a haven from sexism and sexual harassment. It is a gaming community; this community struggles with the same things any gaming community does.

Now, I know I have to respond to some of your posts. Again, I will always report issues when I experience them first hand. Again, I am making a post to raise awareness for past and future issues.

Preminicious wrote:The problem with making a forum post about this is that you lack concrete evidence that any harassment has taken place. I'm not saying it's being doubted, but it's all banter until something is brought to the table that isn't blind accusation.

I am not making an accusation; therefore, I am not required to provide evidence.

Preminicious wrote:Unfortunately friendly reminders aren't going to help with newcomers, and sometimes people have to get called out on their shit before they realize they're being idiots.

A friendly reminder is exactly what newcomers need. When they digress then they are punished.

Preminicious wrote:Basically, the Internet is a faceless place where angsty kids go to vent their sexual frustrations and overall just be complete asshats. You can push it down so it's not so in the open with a strict enforcement of the rules by admins, but that only works when there's admins around, which recently I have seen less of. It's just like Drawed said, everybody is just waiting to get their feelings hurt so they have a reason to bitch and moan about it later when it can be handled right then and there with just talking to the accused party or getting an admin if it's spiraling out of control.

Obviously there's going to be two sides to this argument, as well. I can't say I haven't seen a girl come in a server and demand stuff and attention because she's a woman. The pandering to women also becomes a little excessive at times when it occurs. People get mad and throw around derogatory terms when you go from a medic-less team with no girl to 2-3 medics exclusively pocketing a girl who's gone Heavy because they want her attention. pls respond There are reasons why assholes are assholes.

What you are describing here is sexism. NO girl wants to be "pandered" to because of her gender. This description is more insulting to men than the women in gaming community. Girls are normal people. It is embarrassing. Though, I recognize that some girls (and some guys) love to get attention. It's natural. However, it can create issues in any community. This is a great debate topic. What do you do in instances that you've described? Is it accurate to treat it like a sexism issue? I would say no. When I was admin I would have treated it like team swapping. However, the name-calling is ridiculous. When words like "bitch" and "cunt" start flying around it is time to get out the admin commands.

Everyone,
I'm going one post at a time. Please have patience.

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:08 pm

Knees of Justice wrote:Um. I have not noticed any sexual harrassment or sexism within this community as of late, at least from the regulars.

Sounds to me like you're reaching towards a much more global issue. New players connect to our servers every day and there's no way of knowing the crazy shit -- sexist or not -- that they might do. As you said, we already have a rule about this and I believe that will suffice.

...Heh. Just a side note, but I love how those definitions create a stigma against men.

Of course, this is a universal topic. However, this discussion is highly relevant to this community and other gaming communities.

These definitions are absolutely stating a truth. It's not really creating a stigma against men. Though Sexism and Sexual Assault is not an exclusively male against female act, it is a predominantly an issue women face. I think the best way I can illustrate this is through some humor.

"There is no greater threat to women than men" - Louis CK

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:19 pm

Drawed wrote:Please don't. This is what bothers me about this community sometimes. There are obvious issues among the regulars and admins, yet nobody wants to actually deal with it. It always just derails into a meme cesspool. Everyone get's their feelings hurt and then a big group of people leave and the cycle repeats itself every fucking year. I don't think this can any longer be blamed on "It's summer". The same shit doesn't happen each year for three years in a row because of a change in the weather. There is a fundamental flaw with the way that we handle things around here. Myself included. Now I know this was originally a thread about sexism and the like, but this is as good a time as ever to deal with this shit.

I agree. Though, I suspect that I do not comprehend half of the issues you are implying here. My goals here are to discuss issues that occur in the community without name calling and find a solution.

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:21 pm

Guy wrote:Don't get me started.

Girls like to throw the vagina around and call themselves victims a lot.

I don't see things like THATZ ZO DAMN WOMANNY, YOU ARE SO GIRLLY, THAT IS SO GIRLLY.

No you see: that is so damn gay, You are so gay, That is so gay, you're a *******, go suck a dick *******.
I don't see you being a woman much of a real reason to be insulted.
If a guy is insisting that you prove your gender, may be a desperate person in real life.

I had a guy in WoW think I was a girl in real life, because I played a damn female Blood Elven Holy Priest and used a lot of emotcons.
He followed me over 3 servers. and 2 faction changes. I finally got on vent and said I was a man, and he thought I was using autotune to change my voice. I never once told him I was a girl, and always told him I was a guy... awaywho...

As soon as they find out you are a damn girl in a video game they throw stuff at you... they don't even have to see you.
They worship the ground you walk on, just for the hope to talk to you.

I played several games and above is the case, and in TF2 guys generally think girls can play the game well... and don't take much pitty on you or throw items at you.

I, for one, love vulgar references to penises and testicles... but I have a sense of humor.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Frankly, "girls like to throw the vagina around and call themselves victims a lot," is very offensive. I don't know what I expected, but Guy, I really did not expect it from you.

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:22 pm

Repoman wrote:Treat everyone with respect.

You make more friends that way.

And friends can be used as minions.

This really is the motto to take!

by **Knees of Justice** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:09 pm

Harri wrote:
Knees of Justice wrote:Um. I have not noticed any sexual harassment or sexism within this community as of late, at least from the regulars.

Sounds to me like you're reaching towards a much more global issue. New players connect to our servers every day and there's no way of knowing the crazy shit -- sexist or not -- that they might do. As you said, we already have a rule about this and I believe that will suffice.

...Heh. Just a side note, but I love how those definitions create a stigma against men.

Of course, this is a universal topic. However, this discussion is highly relevant to this community and other gaming communities.

These definitions are absolutely stating a truth. It's not really creating a stigma against men. Though Sexism and Sexual Assault is not an exclusively male against female act, it is a predominantly an issue women face. I think the best way I can illustrate this is through some humor.

"There is no greater threat to women than men" - Louis CK

You keep saying this is highly relevant to our community. I guess what I want to know is, well... what exactly do you want the admins to do? I feel you might have some valid points, and I'd like to hear some suggestions. Keep in mind though that it's a very touchy subject.

I think you misunderstood me. Yes, those definitions do state the statistical "truth"; however, a stigma is still created. Many men are sexually harassed by other females but are afraid to speak out because it goes against the image of masculinity that's engraved into our society. A man who let himself be harassed by a woman? Absolutely shameful... that's the stigma associated with them, and defining sexual harassment as mostly exclusive to women is not helping. I know there are times where it's not any easier for a woman to speak out either, but I'm only talking about the stigma against men here. Sorry, this is a bit off-topic. P:

Website · by **CR33D** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:14 pm

I honestly have not seen that much Sexism (besides telling Ninja to make sandviches :>)

Although I agree with how sexism is definitely a negative taint in our servers, I don't feel it is that big of an issue.
Just my 2 cents, as I haven't had much time to play recently.

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:27 pm

Knees of Justice wrote:You keep saying this is highly relevant to our community. I guess what I want to know is, well... what exactly do you want the admins to do? I feel you might have some valid points, and I'd like to hear some suggestions. Keep in mind though that it's a very touchy subject.

I think you misunderstood me. Yes, those definitions do state the statistical "truth"; however, a stigma is still created. Many men are sexually harassed by other females but are afraid to speak out because it goes against the image of masculinity that's engraved into our society. A man who let himself be harassed by a woman? Absolutely shameful... that's the stigma associated with them, and defining sexual harassment as mostly exclusive to women is not helping. I know there are times where it's not any easier for a woman to speak out either, but I'm only talking about the stigma against men here. Sorry, this is a bit off-topic. P:

I'm not suggesting the admins do anything but continue representing the community in the best way possible.

As to the other point- of course men are affected by sexism. Sexism hurts everyone. I did not make the Oxford English Dictionary definition, but I wouldn't change them.

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:36 pm

CR33D wrote:I honestly have not seen that much Sexism (besides telling Ninja to make sandviches :>)

Although I agree with how sexism is definitely a negative taint in our servers, I don't feel it is that big of an issue.
Just my 2 cents, as I haven't had much time to play recently.

Just as a rule of thumb for everyone- if you are not good friends with a person don't make a sexist or racist joke about them. Why push out people from the community because you want to make an overused joke like "make me a sandwich?"
(This is the royal you!)

The question I would like to propose to everyone is this:

Why are there not more than a handful of regular females on the forums/servers?

Before I went on my long hiatus away from tf2 and Critsandvich, there were a bunch of girls. Where did they go?

by **Drawed** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:10 pm

Harri wrote:Before I went on my long hiatus away from tf2 and Critsandvich, there were a bunch of girls. Where did they go?

They got tired of the white-knighting. Seriously.

by **Fencerboy** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:20 pm

Drawed wrote:
Harri wrote:Before I went on my long hiatus away from tf2 and Critsandvich, there were a bunch of girls. Where did they go?

They got tired of the white-knighting. Seriously.

If I'm remembering correctly, "Debeezy" got banned and there was a large exodus from westbox. A lot of females were included in that group.

by **Rologton** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:04 pm

There are still plenty of females in the community, just not on the forums. Ask any of the Mumble regulars. 2 in particular join us all the time, and I'm friends with several others. Not everybody likes forums.

And for the record, any time a harassment issue comes up, we're all over it. Admins will remember a recent one. Just because we don't air out everything that happens doesn't mean we ignore incidents. Although it might not always seem it, like when some regular has some issue and throws a bitch fit in Spamfest and we have the semi-annual "Big Public Exodus", but the Admins are really good at dealing with issues before the majority of the community even has an idea that there was an issue.

by **Knees of Justice** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:57 pm

Harri wrote:
I'm not suggesting the admins do anything but continue representing the community in the best way possible.

As to the other point- of course men are affected by sexism. Sexism hurts everyone. I did not make the Oxford English Dictionary definition, but I wouldn't change them.

Hmm. I read your post as a call to arms or something. My mistake, then.

Website · by **CR33D** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:11 pm

Fencerboy wrote:
Drawed wrote:
Harri wrote:Before I went on my long hiatus away from tf2 and Critsandvich, there were a bunch of girls. Where did they go?

They got tired of the white-knighting. Seriously.

If I'm remembering correctly, "Debeezy" got banned and there was a large exodus from westbox. A lot of females were included in that group.

I know Eevee got banned aswell, although she visited the Lovenest more often if my memory holds true.

Harri wrote:
CR33D wrote:I honestly have not seen that much Sexism (besides telling Ninja to make sandviches :>)

Although I agree with how sexism is definitely a negative taint in our servers, I don't feel it is that big of an issue.
Just my 2 cents, as I haven't had much time to play recently.

Just as a rule of thumb for everyone- if you are not good friends with a person don't make a sexist or racist joke about them. Why push out people from the community because you want to make an overused joke like "make me a sandwich?"
(This is the royal you!)

The question I would like to propose to everyone is this:

Why are there not more than a handful of regular females on the forums/servers?

Before I went on my long hiatus away from tf2 and Critsandvich, there were a bunch of girls. Where did they go?

I never made the joke, I was simply stating some of the regulars make the joke, who are better friends with Ninja, than I.

by **fingerman** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:50 pm

by **Drawed** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:12 pm

GoDM1N wrote:This section in the forum is dedicated to more serious topics. Anyone may post but you must follow the rules.
Rules:
Respect fellow posters
No personal attacks
You are entitled to your own opinions
But you are not entitled to your own facts
If topic is permissible, cite real sources
STAY ON TOPIC

If you do not follow the rules you will be banned for this part of the forum.

The thread is about the sexism side of bigotry, not to start a public fight between specific people.

So posting pictures of rabbits is ok?

by **check six** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:45 pm

i am a girl gamer i was exiled from the community because the admins are racist and sexist also i was offended by drawed's repeated of the word cunt

by **Failhorse** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:41 pm

This just in.

Admin Report.
We treat our female employees the same as male employees.
I actually made a video to represent this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIYtv5UmyxU

But if people break the rules we take care of it like everything else. Otherwise this is just a debate sort of thing.
And that's OK. Remember to report rule breakers to your admins. Or Redmins if they're sexist assholes.

by **Drawed** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:56 pm

Alright. Let's fucking end this.

There is a difference between being harassed, and feeling harassed on somebody else's behalf. Buckle up Godm1n, because I'm going to use some words in some examples, keyword examples, that you may not like.

There is a player named Marni who is a regular in both the servers and the CSn Mumble. She happens to be a she. I have called her a cunt more times than I can count. I have demanded to see her tits more times than I have demanded to see my own girlfriend's. I have called her shit. I have called her trash. Shit, I have a sound-clip of her moaning sensually that I play in TF2 every single time she tries to talk in game. Shit, I do it every once in a while just because I can. I even made it a hit-sound and put it on tf2dingalings.com where it became the most popular hit-sound for almost two weeks.

And still, through all of that, she is one of my best "e-friends". Why? Because she can take a fucking joke. She wants to play video games. And she wants to be treated like a player. Not like a girl. Not like a guy. On the servers, we are all PLAYERS. Gender doesn't matter. If I feel you are a friend of mine, and can take a joke, I will give you shit regardless of what you have in between your legs. I will give you shit regardless of your sexual orientation or your race. You could be a sassy athiest gay black she-man, and I will still call you a cunt, twat, twunt, shitlord, trashcan, cumdumpster, or whatever other names I can come up with if you are my friend. "But Drawed, what if your friend can't handle that?" Then they aren't my friend and I have no interest in interacting with them other than shoving their projectiles back down their throats with my awesome right clicking skills.

The issue arises when somebody comes into the servers, eager to be offended. They see me giving a friend shit, and they want me to abide by their "LET'S LOVE EVERYBODY" ideals. If you take everything I, an 18 year old Community College Student who lives with his parents, so fucking seriously, you need to rework your views on me.

However, I understand that we get countless new players each day. Players that may not understand that I mean nothing malicious with the things that I say. So I have this bind that I use when somebody expresses their concern. "The player that you see me making fun of is a dear friend of mine. Everything I say is intended as playful banter between my friend and I. Please do not take offence." That is as best a way as possible that I can think to handle it. If that isn't good enough, then I'm sorry. There is nothing I will do it change it so I will have to find a new place to play, despite how much I love CSn and it's community.

PS: Marni, show me your tits

by **Harri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:33 pm

I <3 fingerman and Failhorse

In all seriousness, this is a debate topic. Not a declaration of action!

by **Marni** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:18 am

In all seriousness I think this post is ridiculous. Sexism is a fact of life on the internet, you either learn to deal with it(mute, ignore or insult back) or you stop playing online games. You've said you have no specific person or time you'd like to address, so why bring it up? I'm a super regular on both the sever and the mummble server and I've in no way felt even slightly harassed by anyone on the server admin or otherwise. This over sensitivity and and super political correctness its crazy! Learn to take a joke or learn to use the mute button. I think Guy was correct in saying girls do throw their gender around constantly to gain favors, hats, or attention this is another fact of internet life you just have to learn to live with. Personally I think as a girl you either bitch and whine about it and prove the guys right, OR You Ignore them and SHOVE your way into the boys club and laugh at thier angry faces. You choose.

by **Newport** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:19 am

marni's first post.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:21 am

Marni wrote:In all seriousness I think this post is ridiculous. Sexism is a fact of life on the internet, you either learn to deal with it(mute, ignore or insult back) or you stop playing online games. You've said you have no specific person or time you'd like to address, so why bring it up? I'm a super regular on both the sever and the mummble server and I've in no way felt even slightly harassed by anyone on the server admin or otherwise. This over sensitivity and and super political correctness its crazy! Learn to take a joke or learn to use the mute button. I think Guy was correct in saying girls do throw their gender around constantly to gain favors, hats, or attention this is another fact of internet life you just have to learn to live with. Personally I think as a girl you either bitch and whine about it and prove the guys right, OR You Ignore them and SHOVE your way into the boys club and laugh at thier angry faces. You choose.

Tits please.

by **Marni** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:23 am

Newport wrote:marni's first post.

YUUUUP, so many people were buggin me about this. So my first form post(of any froum EVER) is this one.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:24 am

Marni wrote:
Newport wrote:marni's first post.

YUUUUP, so many people were buggin me about this. So my first form post(of any froum EVER) is this one.

We weren't bugging you about it. You were the one who was making such a big fucking deal out of it in Mumble. Like holy shit woman.

by **Marni** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:28 am

Drawed wrote:
Marni wrote:
Newport wrote:marni's first post.

YUUUUP, so many people were buggin me about this. So my first form post(of any froum EVER) is this one.

We weren't bugging you about it. You were the one who was making such a big fucking deal out of it in Mumble. Like holy shit woman.

Penis plz.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:30 am

Marni wrote:Penis plz.

Careful what you wish for bitch.

by **Rologton** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:32 am

WOULD YOU TWO SHUT UP AND FUCK ALREADY!

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:34 am

You can cut the sexual tension with a knife.

Edit: I am the master of subtlety.

by **Punisher** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:22 am

Seriously though, people need to learn to take a bloody joke, its the internet nobody really means what they say or care what you say. As it has been stated you can just mute people being offensive or utilize the votemute function to turn them off for everyone.

Furthermore as to the people playing the game differently if you're a girl, its just not really true, people play differently because you use a mic. People are pocketing you because your communicating with you(would you prefer to heal the one who can talk to you and tell you when to pop, or the one who might just LEEEROY in without notice?) and they are targeting you for the glorious audible rage they hope for(I always target a mic over a non-mic if given the option). So when I approach someone from the back hoping to thrust my knife deep within their anus it's not because you're a girl its because you're using a mic and I hope for rage not buttsecks. It's the same reason I only disguise as a spy, just to piss people off as they bitch and moan about their team not killing the spy who is always a spy.

So like Drawed was saying, should we not be speak to like we would to any other random player? Or should we cater differently and alter what we say because your a woman? The latter seems more sexiest, in which case you just need to deal with the genitalia references since they are made to everyone, now they may be made more towards someone using a mic but that's not because of their gender but rather because they posses the ability to speak back.

Now then, I do think there should be a votegag option enabled so if someone is being particularly offensive the server can determine if they want to continue hearing/reading that(which is useful since there isn't always an admin on nowadays especially at the time I play most nights). Since votemute doesn't disable the chat functionality a votegag option would.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:19 am

Punisher wrote:(which is useful since there isn't always an admin on nowadays especially at the time I play most nights)

It's almost like the only admin who was consistently on late at night was stripped of admin or something. What a shame.

I AM SO FUCKING GOOD AT BEING SUBTLE

by **Repoman** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:42 am

This whole entire topic is not an issue in our community.

People are just posting in here to justify something they did incorrectly.

The hypocrisy of Drawed is overwhelming.

by **Marni** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:46 am

Repoman wrote:This whole entire topic is not an issue in our community.

People are just posting in here to justify something they did incorrectly.

The hypocrisy of Drawed is overwhelming.

Who here is justifying anything? Have they sexual harassed me? A female on the server, No. Every one whos posted saying that they think this topic is off base is my good friend and I completely agree with everything they've said.

by **Mike808** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:50 am

Sorry, gonna post this cause its too perfect.

Although I am reading everything.

by **check six** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:28 am

thread is retarded

i'm mostly here to shit on drawed for being an idiot

by **NBC011795** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:13 am

From what I gather, it seems to me that Harri was trying to start a debate stating that being a female is diffrent in servers than a male due to how people act towards them, and She also ment no harm and not directed towards anyone as She has posted many times.

And this thread can be use in the other way of female players using males in games since I have seen that in WoW and other MMOs where females would try to take advantage of male players.

I personally have seen people act differently when they find out one of the players in the server is female, usually people talking to them more, sometimes they would go medic to pocket them, or w/e to try to get their attention.

And there is a difference between a female player who dislikes vulgar references and someone who doesn't seem to mind/perhaps even enjoys them as I have noticed in this thread.

I myself think that such things have no place in this community as my impression in the past has been that this is meant to be a friendly community that players should enjoy without getting harassed regardless of whether it is a male or a female who is feeling harassed.
And as people have stated in the thread many times before me, if anyone feels harassed they should bring it before an admin and they can deal with the situation.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:24 am

Repoman wrote:The hypocrisy of Drawed is overwhelming.

Care to back that up instead of making seemingly baseless personal attacks? I am feeling quite harassed right now.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:27 am

NBC011795 wrote:perhaps even enjoys them as I have noticed in this thread.

tl;dr: Marni is kinky as shit.

by **Marni** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:40 am

Drawed wrote:tl;dr: Marni is kinky as shit.

HARASSMENT!!!!!!!!! I feel judged and uncomfortable by the spreading rumors about my sexual preferences! (however true)

JESUS I also feel unhappy with the amount of penissseseses in this thread, are you all typing with them! your so vulgar!

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:28 am

Aaaaaaaand thread is officially derailed. I'm honestly impressed we lasted around five pages before it turned into this. Somebody care to summarize the events of the thread before Rosey and friends starts spamming the thread with pictures of my face?

by **Maringue** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:34 am

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I actually agree with Drawed on one point. If the person is a community member or someone you interact with regularly and they say something that you find offensive, you need to tell that person about it if you value their continued interaction. Otherwise how are they supposed to know?

If they are a random person on the internet that you never expect to interact with again, how do you propose to change their behavior? All we can do as admins is create a place where rules are enforced. This does nothing to stop people from breaking the rules initially.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:44 am

Maringue wrote:I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I actually agree with Drawed on one point. If the person is a community member or someone you interact with regularly and they say something that you find offensive, you need to tell that person about it if you value their continued interaction. Otherwise how are they supposed to know?

If they are a random person on the internet that you never expect to interact with again, how do you propose to change their behavior? All we can do as admins is create a place where rules are enforced. This does nothing to stop people from breaking the rules initially.

THANK YOU!

Also, can you explain that first sentence? I seem to have this stigma of being a total cunt when in reality I'm a pretty damn nice guy if you get to know me. There is a difference between talking shit, and meaning it. In reality, I hold no animosity towards anybody here. Even you Godm1n and Saber. I understand that some of you don't like the way I act. What you all seem to take as some sort of deep down hatred for these specific people is rather a disapproval of the way some of you handle matters. If you can all just get past the fact that I will give you an infinite amount of shit when I'm playing with you, I'm a pretty cool guy, or so I've heard.

by **Guy LeDouche** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:44 pm

Marni wrote:In all seriousness I think this post is ridiculous. Sexism is a fact of life on the internet, you either learn to deal with it(mute, ignore or insult back) or you stop playing online games. You've said you have no specific person or time you'd like to address, so why bring it up? I'm a super regular on both the sever and the mummble server and I've in no way felt even slightly harassed by anyone on the server admin or otherwise. This over sensitivity and and super political correctness its crazy! Learn to take a joke or learn to use the mute button. I think Guy was correct in saying girls do throw their gender around constantly to gain favors, hats, or attention this is another fact of internet life you just have to learn to live with. Personally I think as a girl you either bitch and whine about it and prove the guys right, OR You Ignore them and SHOVE your way into the boys club and laugh at thier angry faces. You choose.

R U Gurl?

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:44 pm

Guy LeDouche wrote:
Marni wrote:In all seriousness I think this post is ridiculous. Sexism is a fact of life on the internet, you either learn to deal with it(mute, ignore or insult back) or you stop playing online games. You've said you have no specific person or time you'd like to address, so why bring it up? I'm a super regular on both the sever and the mummble server and I've in no way felt even slightly harassed by anyone on the server admin or otherwise. This over sensitivity and and super political correctness its crazy! Learn to take a joke or learn to use the mute button. I think Guy was correct in saying girls do throw their gender around constantly to gain favors, hats, or attention this is another fact of internet life you just have to learn to live with. Personally I think as a girl you either bitch and whine about it and prove the guys right, OR You Ignore them and SHOVE your way into the boys club and laugh at thier angry faces. You choose.

R U Gurl?

pls respond

by **check six** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:59 pm

i think we have a case of

DRAWEDTISM

by **Maringue** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:01 pm

Drawed wrote:
Maringue wrote:I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I actually agree with Drawed on one point. If the person is a community member or someone you interact with regularly and they say something that you find offensive, you need to tell that person about it if you value their continued interaction. Otherwise how are they supposed to know?

If they are a random person on the internet that you never expect to interact with again, how do you propose to change their behavior? All we can do as admins is create a place where rules are enforced. This does nothing to stop people from breaking the rules initially.

THANK YOU!

Also, can you explain that first sentence? I seem to have this stigma of being a total cunt when in reality I'm a pretty damn nice guy if you get to know me. There is a difference between talking shit, and meaning it. In reality, I hold no animosity towards anybody here. Even you Godm1n and Saber. I understand that some of you don't like the way I act. What you all seem to take as some sort of deep down hatred for these specific people is rather a disapproval of the way some of you handle matters. If you can all just get past the fact that I will give you an infinite amount of shit when I'm playing with you, I'm a pretty cool guy, or so I've heard.

I'm old, so as a result I like to play things much more level headedly. You tend to be more hot headed about stuff, which is why I said that. Also partly as a joke since no one else is agreeing with you ever.

But the issue is we don't want anyone in our servers to feel uncomfortable. You can joke around with people you know because you know what will make them uncomfortable and what won't. When you do or say something to another player that makes them uncomfortable and not want to be in the server, that's harassment and against our rules.

by **Drawed** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:39 pm

Maringue wrote:When you do or say something to another player that makes them uncomfortable and not want to be in the server, that's harassment and against our rules.

I agree 100%. Which is why I never give shit to anybody I don't know. If somebody can come up with proof of me harassing somebody that I don't know, I would very much like to see it.

by **Beartato** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:29 pm

I definitely think Harri brings up an interesting discussion. Her point that there are fewer girls in the community than before might be indicative of something about the community...or not.

One thing I will say is that Marni's continued participation in our community is not proof of "nothing is wrong" since she is just one girl. There are a lot of girls unlike her who aren't regulars, but as to why this is the case isn't too clear. It could be that the community does not make them feel welcome for some reason (i.e., we're doing something wrong), it could be that they feel more welcome in other communities (i.e., someone else is doing something right), or there simply may not be a lot of girls playing the game.

I will offer up that I know a former female regular here who pretty much stopped showing up because she got a lot of shit for being a girl gamer, but I'm not sure that was the sole reason. But listening to how people talked about her in mumble, I could hear some pretty clear resentment for her that at least partially stemmed from the matter of her sex.

But in the end I feel that a lot of issues of sexual harassment in games (in general) really come from the fact that most people online are still in their socially formative years. Guys might be frequently toeing the line trying to figure out what is and isn't appropriate while girls may not yet know how to respond to unwanted advances, offers, insults, etc. I'm not sure it's something that could be changed without changing our target demographic dramatically, and even then there is a lot of sexism ingrained in certain fractions of the online community.

There's definitely hope in the fact that the community was willing to discuss to some degree, rather than shooting it down completely. Gotta give a lot of credit to the admin group for doing what they do to keep bigotry out of the server and keep it a welcoming atmosphere.

Anyways, here's some pictures of Drawed's face in my signature to start making the thread unworthy of replies:

Look at you tiny-itty-bitty men running from sandvich!

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